Hodgson: I was so unlucky

[dww]

No, its not that's true, I was just responding to an inherent vibe and some posts earlier in this thread. The Spanish thing is a little odd, however, well, none of us were working at the club for the last few years. Its not bordering on racism even remotely if he's talking about a specific divide that had been festering within the club, a feeling of favouritism or whatever, around a particular Spanish manager, Spanish coaches and Spanish players, rather than just Spaniards in general. Yeah its a bit stupid of Carra to say it at all, and then to phrase it like that, but the lad is a footballer not an intellectual.

Lets say the company you might work for is taken over by a foreign firm, who come in and gradually replace everyone you know and trust with people of their nationality, some of whom are good at their jobs but some of whom aren't, and integration is not really fostered from the top... well, no matter how well the company did from then on, how much resentment do you think could build up?

I think there could be a lot in that. However the impression I get is that Carragher and Gerrard feel that their should be favouritism but towards them (or perhaps scousers or even English players more generally). When Rafa first arrived I remember a lot of talk of the need to break up the cliques which Gerrard and Carragher were part of at the time.

[MrMichael]

Isnt the point that we were a crushing machine and due in large part to carra and gerrard contributing WELL below par in rafa's final season we failed to build on it. so their form losing us points and wanting rafa out are inextricably linked. and conspiracy theory heaven. agree its all rumour and speculation so hard to be precise but going on gut feel, I think they let personal issues with rafa/contracts etc spill onto the pitch. They contributed to his downfall very significantly.

Could you not just as easily argue that the consistently stellar performances of those 2 in previous seasons cemented Benitez position and led to much of his success in the first place? I don't think you can accept their role in his downfall to any more or any less of an extent than you can his success. Considering both were already at the club when he arrived.... well that line goes all sorts of places. Without doing so, lets just say that with relationships at the club and amongst the playing staff apparently so bad, and with the manager apparently at the centre of it, and with it apparently affecting performances on the pitch, could that not be grounds in itself for considering the dismissal of said manager?

[Fredo]

I don't think the relationships were that bad, just that there was too much influence by the senior players, of which Carra and Gerrard are the two most prominent ones. Those two are basically 'unsackable'. If their authority undermines the manager's, then I don't think it's right.

[Pablo]

I'm going to sinbin you just for lulz soon. I very nearly just did it right then but I want time to play some poker at some point this morning. In fact I might make just it a daily thing, a different (real) mod decides each morning whether you'll be banned, sinbinned or allowed on the site that day.

Seconded. I think it's the only way he'll learn. The poor dog is delusional

[dww]

The thing is that the way the club was run from the top down seemed to foster a lot of political bollocks and it had massively negative effects in Rafas last season, certainly informed the appointment of Roy and probably a lot of signings and perhaps even some of the poor form this season. Thankfully G&H and Purslow have gone and everyone seems united behind Dalglish and Clarke.

I don't think Hodgson was unlucky - although I do think he was up against it from the start (even if I also think he wasn't good enough). If he couldn't see the things that we can see, or have contacts who could help inform him then he was ill prepared for the job.

[MrMichael]

Just blame PTP instead.

Ha. like anyone will believe PTP did some modding, even accidentally. Fishing for a big juicy bite.....

Good idea. Can I go first?

Certainly.

Though I think we should make a game out of it in the end, get like a wheel of fortune type thingy we spin or chuck a dart at. We could have forum competitions for members to be allowed a go on their birthdays, or if they get the score right in game predictions or something.

I think there could be a lot in that. However the impression I get is that Carragher and Gerrard feel that their should be favouritism but towards them (or perhaps scousers or even English players more generally). When Rafa first arrived I remember a lot of talk of the need to break up the cliques which Gerrard and Carragher were part of at the time.

That's probably fair and I get that impression a bit too.

There was, and for a while that seemed from the outside to have worked, and there to be relatively good integration within the club, but that does seem to have come apart quite badly in the last year or so of Rafa's tenure, and there must be more behind that than simple blame of overinflated player egos

[danperkins]

Don't see what the issue is with Carra's comments and i don't hold any bitterness with Hodgson either. He was just way way out of his depth. We have moved on, sure it would have been great if Kenny had come in a month beforehand, maybe we could have been challenging for 4th spot but sure its done and dusted, no point abusing the man i hardly think he done it on purpose. He did his best, unfortunately it was nowhere near in the vicinity as good enough for LFC.

P.S. If we had 11 players with the commitment and passion of Jamie Carragher we'd be unbeatable. Guy is a LFC legend and has given everything for this club so i find it hard to knit pick at him.

[dww]

Don't see what the issue is with Carra's comments and i don't hold any bitterness with Hodgson either. He was just way way out of his depth. We have moved on, sure it would have been great if Kenny had come in a month beforehand, maybe we could have been challenging for 4th spot but sure its done and dusted, no point abusing the man i hardly think he done it on purpose. He did his best, unfortunately it was nowhere near in the vicinity as good enough for LFC.

P.S. If we had 11 players with the commitment and passion of Jamie Carragher we'd be unbeatable. Guy is a LFC legend and has given everything for this club so i find it hard to knit pick at him.

I think this attitude is one of the main reasons that English youth football and player development is/was so far behind the continent. The sort of idiotic idea of commitment that got Joe Cole sent off against Arsenal and should have seen Carragher sent off against United is not a good thing.

Players can give their all and be passionate and determined to win without that - Kuyt being a prime example.

[Fredo]

Don't see what the issue is with Carra's comments and i don't hold any bitterness with Hodgson either. He was just way way out of his depth. We have moved on, sure it would have been great if Kenny had come in a month beforehand, maybe we could have been challenging for 4th spot but sure its done and dusted, no point abusing the man i hardly think he done it on purpose. He did his best, unfortunately it was nowhere near in the vicinity as good enough for LFC.

P.S. If we had 11 players with the commitment and passion of Jamie Carragher we'd be unbeatable. Guy is a LFC legend and has given everything for this club so i find it hard to knit pick at him.

We aren't disputing Carra's 'legendary status' here, just that he talks bollocks sometimes. Of course some people are going to point issues at some of the things he says, much like some people find issues with some of the Xenophobic drivel spouted out by Ian St. John, who is a LFC 'legend' as well.

[Roboklopp]

Could you not just as easily argue that the consistently stellar performances of those 2 in previous seasons cemented Benitez position and led to much of his success in the first place? I don't think you can accept their role in his downfall to any more or any less of an extent than you can his success. Considering both were already at the club when he arrived.... well that line goes all sorts of places. Without doing so, lets just say that with relationships at the club and amongst the playing staff apparently so bad, and with the manager apparently at the centre of it, and with it apparently affecting performances on the pitch, could that not be grounds in itself for considering the dismissal of said manager?

You could but Rafa got far more out of Gerrard & Carra than GH got, yet you dont get such snide comments about him.

Re- the foreign manager coming in to my place- well, if our company output was way better than it had been before & I was on a full wedge then I would put aside personal differences. However, I'm not massively career-driven & dont do something I love, so it's not really a fair comparrison.

Also, a lot of the foreign players that Rafa brought in raised the level of the team significantly. Is it really a problem their nationality? Particularly when players from Spain and Argentina are representing footballing sides with far greater pedigree than the locals?

[Fredo]

I

Players can give their all and be passionate and determined to win without that - Kuyt being a prime example.

Exactly.

[Lecter]

Ok, well lets say thats true. But then we kinda have to ask how that was allowed to develop anyway by the man responsible for managing those players. Gerrard, Torres and Carra you say, well at the start of the 2009-10 season if you'd asked most fans, those were basically our 3 world class players, two of whom will possibly be lifelong servants, who've stuck with us through thick and thin. For things at the club to have deteriorated so badly that they would want to manipulate Rafa out, well, you do have to ask why? And whether that alone gives you grounds for sacking him?

I'll send you a pm about this later rather than clog up the forum with spurious claims and allegations

[Glenn Hysen]

Can't one of you in the Rafa-sect start a new site where you glorify him all day long?

[Arn]

I think this attitude is one of the main reasons that English youth football and player development is/was so far behind the continent. The sort of idiotic idea of commitment that got Joe Cole sent off against Arsenal and should have seen Carragher sent off against United is not a good thing.

Players can give their all and be passionate and determined to win without that - Kuyt being a prime example.

I will never understand why an English player or a local lad would automatic be a better Captain than a foreign one just because he is English and a local lad.

Sometimes you need a foreign Captain that see things different and can thanks to that deal with situations in a different way. Hyypia being a great example of that.

Gerrard shouldn't be Captain IMO. The only reason he is that is because he is a local lad. Is that the right thing to do. Make a player Captain because he is a local lad even that other players would be a better choice?

We have the same problem at Chelsea IMO. Terry isn't the best Captain by a mile for them. Essien would be a fantastic Captain for them.

The player that is best Captain should be the Captain. It shouldn't matter a bit if he is English or not.

[CJ]

I will never understand why an English player or a local lad would automatic be a better Captain than a foreign one just because he is English and a local lad.

Sometimes you need a foreign Captain that see things different and can thanks to that deal with situations in a different way. Hyypia being a great example of that.

Gerrard shouldn't be Captain IMO. The only reason he is that is because he is a local lad. Is that the right thing to do. Make a player Captain because he is a local lad even that other players would be a better choice?

We have the same problem at Chelsea IMO. Terry isn't the best Captain by a mile for them. Essien would be a fantastic Captain for them.

The player that is best Captain should be the Captain. It shouldn't matter a bit if he is English or not.

I dont think hyypia was a great captain. Actually i think carra would have been a very good captain on the pitch. At the moment i am not sure who would be better than SG as captain. Though i do agree that he is not a great captain either apart from things like istanbul. We would have got the same result with another captain as Gerrard would still have driven the come back.