What football should be all about

[Darkon]

In the wake of our six year trophy drought, I just wanted to come out and say that is what football is all about. Those nights where succes hinges on 1 game, 1 game that makes you incredibly happy or sad as a supporter.

I will take a night like that ahead of finishing 3rd or 4th in the league any day now. **** finishing in a position nobody cares about, gives you no glory and leaves you with no particular feeling other than - well at least we are in the CL.

I couldn't give a crap about qualifying for CL as a goal for a season, it's all about the trophies, those are the days/nights you remember, they are the real cliffhangers. And you become a big club by winning stuff, not by consistently being just behind the winners, it's not our secondary finishes we refer to when calling us a big club, it's all the trophies we have won over the year. They are what the tales are made of, not the many seasons in the 90's and 00's we finished in top-4.

Also a big **** off to UEFA for creating a European tournament structure that makes it more attractive (for some) to finish fourth than winning a tournament. It's just plain obvious how ridiculous it is, much better if only the winner of a league was in the CL. But it's all about the money from an organizational perspective, and sadly to many fans are buying in to it. I know people will come out with the inevitable "CL will give us more money for better players" argument, but then you havn't understood the point.

Give me trophies over league position any day. Give me more nights of celebration than just the feeling of getting more money next year.

Edit: This thread is about the structure of modern football, how it should be structured and not about where we will / should finish this season. It's about if football would be better and more interesting if in general you awarded winning domestic compeitions higher, and make a structure where the incitament of winning domestic cups was higher. It's about if winning trophies should again become the focus of the sport.

[Muddled]

Absolutely.

With particular reference to your '**** off to UEFA', I couldn't agree more; a desire to finish fourth for the lucrative Champions League and all the money it creates, often dictates a team selection in a cup game - surely the players themselves want to look at their medals at the end of their career, not talk about playing BATE Borisov in a group game of the Champions League.

I also think the importance of this cup win won't be recognised until a few more years have passed; we might just have installed a winning mentality and a desire for more success amongst our younger players - who all got 'big game' experience - that might just propel us on to greater things.

[Darkon]

Absolutely.

With particular reference to your '**** off to UEFA', I couldn't agree more; a desire to finish fourth for the lucrative Champions League and all the money it creates, often dictates a team selection in a cup game.

I also think the importance of this cup win won't be recognised until a few more years have passed; we might just have installed a winning mentality and a desire for more success amongst our younger players - who all got 'big game' experience - that might just propel us on to greater things.

If our goal is CL qualification then that is all we will ever achieve and be satisfied with. We need to win things, it's what matters and it's what makes the right mentality of players.

[baitman]

many good players whop we are looking to sign will ask if they will be playing in the CL, its true...
there will also be others who will ask the players here what have you won while you have been at Liverpool. it is only now that the likes of dirk kuyt can actually say he has something to show for his time at our club. we definitely need more of that to show we are contenders, trophy winners, and have ambition.
this is the first step to re-gaining our previously god given right to be in the CL.

[Darkon]

I do get it, I just think it is sentiment of footballing reality.

Additionally the CL was created to prevent league clubs forming a European super league as basically they (including us) wanted more money from the tournament.

Then I honestly don't think you understand my post. I'm saying that to many fans have bought in to the idea that football is about qualifying for CL and not about winning trophies, it's partly because UEFA have made a ****ed up structure, and partly because fans accept it as a goal in itself.

I want to win trophies, big or small, and I don't give a flying f*** about finishing 3rd or 4th as a goal. We will attract more players by winning trophies than by consistently being just behind the clubs that win things. Players actively leaves Valencia, villarreal, Arsenal, us, Schalke, etc. because they want to win things not because they want to play in the CL. which they are guarenteed there more or less. And the edited part is exactly what is wrong, football is now more about money than winning tournaments, and both the clubs and many fans have bought in to th idea. It's everything that ruins the whole idea of sports and competition in it. When even fans accept they would rather get money than a trophy the sport itself have fallen far from what it should be.

You might call it reality, but to me it's an illusion that to many fans are accepting as reality, and one that will never give you great nights in itself.

[Alex]

I think Darkons point was that teams now see it as an acheivement finishing 4th. Its not, the real achievement is winning trophies, no matter what they are.

But I do agree with Matt that we need to finish 4th, in order too win more.

It didn't sit right with me at the start of this season though when everyone was talking about us wanting to finish 4th. IMO we should go into every season wanting to finish 1st, and anything other than that is a disappointing. Otherwise...whats the point.

[Darkon]

No I completely understand it, I just think it is sentimentality. The reality is that we need to get into the CL to be competitive.

Okay, I'm not going to bother any further then. I can only say that you don't understand what I'm getting at, and that's fine. Maybe I'm not expressing myself correctly, or maybe you are just to far away from me in the outlook on sport and what it's about. Either way, we won't come any closer on the matter.

[RichC]

In the wake of our six year trophy drought, I just wanted to come out and say that is what football is all about. Those nights where succes hinges on 1 game, 1 game that makes you incredibly happy or sad as a supporter.

I will take a night like that ahead of finishing 3rd or 4th in the league any day now. **** finishing in a position nobody cares about, gives you no glory and leaves you with no particular feeling other than - well at least we are in the CL.

I couldn't give a crap about qualifying for CL as a goal for a season, it's all about the trophies, those are the days/nights you remember, they are the real cliffhangers. And you become a big club by winning stuff, not by consistently being just behind the winners, it's not our secondary finishes we refer to when calling us a big club, it's all the trophies we have won over the year. They are what the tales are made of, not the many seasons in the 90's and 00's we finished in top-4.

Also a big **** off to UEFA for creating a European tournament structure that makes it more attractive (for some) to finish fourth than winning a tournament. It's just plain obvious how ridiculous it is, much better if only the winner of a league was in the CL. But it's all about the money from an organizational perspective, and sadly to many fans are buying in to it. I know people will come out with the inevitable "CL will give us more money for better players" argument, but then you havn't understood the point.

Give me trophies over league position any day. Give me more nights of celebration than just the feeling of getting more money next year.

Great post.

LFC is about winning trophies whether it's the league, Champions League or even the league cup.

Getting 4th is great and all to be in the Champions League but winninng stuff is what I want to see.

[Lee]

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on this one and I can see the views from both sides.

I agree that we're here to win trophies and the feeling of winning a cup is ****ing brilliant. Even winning the League Cup - as it's mocked now - was a ****ing great feeling on Sunday.

However, as football has changed now it's so important to get fourth. I wish we could **** off the need to finish there and just concentrate on trophies but if we want to sign better players and compete on all fronts in the long term then we have to get top four.

I agree with Muddled - a player should look at his trophy cabinet at the end of his career rather than knowing he played a couple of Wednesday night games in Russia, but that's not the mentality of (most) modern footballers sadly and we all know this. Let's hope we can win the FA Cup this season and finish fourth - that'd make for a decent year.

Sorry to sit on the fence.

[Tee]

Great post.

LFC is about winning trophies whether it's the league, Champions League or even the league cup.

Getting 4th is great and all to be in the Champions League but winninng stuff is what I want to see.

Obvious I know, but we have to finish in the top 4 to win our favourite trophy don't we?

[Mattshark]

Great post.

LFC is about winning trophies whether it's the league, Champions League or even the league cup.

Getting 4th is great and all to be in the Champions League but winninng stuff is what I want to see.

So would you be happy to not be competitive in the league and win the league cup every couple of years? I certainly wouldn't.

[Fosterbloke]

No, it's because of your previous answers and because you call it sentimentality. I'm not talking about where we have to finish to be competitive, that's what you are talking about. I'm talking about the essence of football and all sports - it's about winning, it's about those great nights and not about consistently being in the CL. It has nothing to do with being sentimental, but I will swap qual for the CL for trophies any season, because it's what sport is all about. That old discussion about we need to get fourth is for another thread.

Basically it should be renamed the European Cup and league winners can only enter.

[Darkon]

Basically it should be renamed the European Cup and league winners can only enter.

much of this is down to UEFA and many big clubs for creating a ****ed up structure in modern football making a grey boring season more attractive than winning domestic cups.

There was a suggestion a couple of years back about making the CL for league winners and domestic cup winners - now that is an intriguing idea. It would get the essence of football back in focus rather than money being a goal in itself. Then leave the secondary league positions for the EL.

[Darkon]

I renamed the thread in a hope that it will make it more clear what I meant for the thread.

[RichC]

This become tedious very quickly