What football should be all about

[Darkon]

This become tedious very quickly

It did, delted it all for that very reason

Also see edit in OP

[Nicey]

In the wake of our six year trophy drought, I just wanted to come out and say that is what football is all about. Those nights where succes hinges on 1 game, 1 game that makes you incredibly happy or sad as a supporter.

I will take a night like that ahead of finishing 3rd or 4th in the league any day now. **** finishing in a position nobody cares about, gives you no glory and leaves you with no particular feeling other than - well at least we are in the CL.

I couldn't give a crap about qualifying for CL as a goal for a season, it's all about the trophies, those are the days/nights you remember, they are the real cliffhangers. And you become a big club by winning stuff, not by consistently being just behind the winners, it's not our secondary finishes we refer to when calling us a big club, it's all the trophies we have won over the year. They are what the tales are made of, not the many seasons in the 90's and 00's we finished in top-4.

Also a big **** off to UEFA for creating a European tournament structure that makes it more attractive (for some) to finish fourth than winning a tournament. It's just plain obvious how ridiculous it is, much better if only the winner of a league was in the CL. But it's all about the money from an organizational perspective, and sadly to many fans are buying in to it. I know people will come out with the inevitable "CL will give us more money for better players" argument, but then you havn't understood the point.

Give me trophies over league position any day. Give me more nights of celebration than just the feeling of getting more money next year.

Edit: This thread is about the structure of modern football, how it should be structured and not about where we will / should finish this season. It's about if football would be better and more interesting if in general you awarded winning domestic compeitions higher, and make a structure where the incitament of winning domestic cups was higher. It's about if winning trophies should again become the focus of the sport.

[BG1973]

In the wake of our six year trophy drought, I just wanted to come out and say that is what football is all about. Those nights where succes hinges on 1 game, 1 game that makes you incredibly happy or sad as a supporter.

I will take a night like that ahead of finishing 3rd or 4th in the league any day now. **** finishing in a position nobody cares about, gives you no glory and leaves you with no particular feeling other than - well at least we are in the CL.

I couldn't give a crap about qualifying for CL as a goal for a season, it's all about the trophies, those are the days/nights you remember, they are the real cliffhangers. And you become a big club by winning stuff, not by consistently being just behind the winners, it's not our secondary finishes we refer to when calling us a big club, it's all the trophies we have won over the year. They are what the tales are made of, not the many seasons in the 90's and 00's we finished in top-4.

Also a big **** off to UEFA for creating a European tournament structure that makes it more attractive (for some) to finish fourth than winning a tournament. It's just plain obvious how ridiculous it is, much better if only the winner of a league was in the CL. But it's all about the money from an organizational perspective, and sadly to many fans are buying in to it. I know people will come out with the inevitable "CL will give us more money for better players" argument, but then you havn't understood the point.

Give me trophies over league position any day. Give me more nights of celebration than just the feeling of getting more money next year.

Edit: This thread is about the structure of modern football, how it should be structured and not about where we will / should finish this season. It's about if football would be better and more interesting if in general you awarded winning domestic compeitions higher, and make a structure where the incitament of winning domestic cups was higher. It's about if winning trophies should again become the focus of the sport.

Nonsense, if we had won 18 league cups and no league titles we'd be nothing.

League titles is how top clubs are measured in this country and CL qualification is very important for us to stand a chance of winning another one.

More important than winning a competition where top teams choose to rest players or develop their youngsters.

[baitman]

Nonsense, if we had won 18 league cups and no league titles we'd be nothing.

League titles is how top clubs are measured in this country and CL qualification is very important for us to stand a chance of winning another one.

More important than winning a competition where top teams choose to rest players or develop their youngsters.

all very true, but it must be better to actually win something. if you come 4th in the prem and qualify for the CL, but then get smashed and dont make the knock out stages you haven't really achieved much.

[Darkon]

Nonsense, if we had won 18 league cups and no league titles we'd be nothing.

League titles is how top clubs are measured in this country and CL qualification is very important for us to stand a chance of winning another one.

More important than winning a competition where top teams choose to rest players or develop their youngsters.

I'm not sure why it's nonsense, my post doesn't disagree with your first line. I agree that winning the league is more important, it has always been and should always be more important than any cup. I agree 100% that we need to win the league, and it's the biggest meassure together with the european cups.

And regarding the rest that is the whole crux of the matter for me. Currently football awards CL-qual over winning domestic cups, and that makes no sense to me and not how is should be. That is why big teams are resting key players in the cup, and why it's getting devalued.

I think it's a shame that the structure of european football have made it more attractive to have a season finishing 3rd or 4th than actually winning something. Winning domestic cups should be rewarded better than secondary league finished IMO.

Equally to what you are saying, we should be meassured on the amount of trophies we win not what secondary position we have acieved. For me it's a problem, I will be talking more about Sunday than I will about any of the seasons we have finished secondary in the past 20 years without winning anything - and shouldn't football be rewarding that instead?

[Red_Polo]

Lots of muddled thinking here if you ask me

I do agree CL qualification is more important to our trophy winning long term. It's not a myth or an illusion, it's a reality of the modern game. Even if you get knocked out in the group stages, you'll have had your pick of better players in the previous summer and had increased revenue to boot. That puts you at an advantage when it comes to future success, in ALL competitions. It's not idiotic to want us to get 4th over the league cup, it can be reasonably argued as being more pragmatic and forward thinking.

Cup vs 4th is a stupid argument anyway. It's not like it's a choice we have to make, and as darkon has repeatedly tried to say, it is not the crux of the thread. The point is that something is wrong in the game if we have so many people valuing 4th place over a domestic cup win. Whatever you see the reason for that being. We have a system in place that devalues domestic cups and makes everything about revenue. That's sad, it's not the way football should be.

[Darkon]

Lots of muddled thinking here if you ask me

I do agree CL qualification is more important to our trophy winning long term. It's not a myth or an illusion, it's a reality of the modern game. Even if you get knocked out in the group stages, you'll have had your pick of better players in the previous summer and had increased revenue to boot. That puts you at an advantage when it comes to future success, in ALL competitions. It's not idiotic to want us to get 4th over the league cup, it can be reasonably argued as being more pragmatic and forward thinking.

Cup vs 4th is a stupid argument anyway. It's not like it's a choice we have to make, and as darkon has repeatedly tried to say, it is not the crux of the thread. The point is that something is wrong in the game if we have so many people valuing 4th place over a domestic cup win. Whatever you see the reason for that being. We have a system in place that devalues domestic cups and makes everything about revenue. That's sad, it's not the way football should be.

[Craig_H]

If our goal is CL qualification then that is all we will ever achieve and be satisfied with. We need to win things, it's what matters and it's what makes the right mentality of players.

Yes we want to win things, one of which is the European Cup. I'll never forget Istanbul, the best footballing night of my life. I was in Athens & the experience was incredible, even though we lost. The wins over Juve, Real Madrid, nights at the Bernebeu & Camp Nou...those are the nights being a football fan is about, they live in the memory forever. I want those back.

How do we win the European Cup again & have more of those nights....if we don't finish 4th?

Plus being in the CL means attracting & affording better players which = a better team & more chance of winning leagues, FA Cups & League Cups going forward.


Not being in the CL is a major handicap, no matter what anyone says.

[Darkon]

Yes we want to win things, one of which is the European Cup. I'll never forget Istanbul, the best footballing night of my life. I was in Athens & the experience was incredible, even though we lost. The wins over Juve, Real Madrid, nights at the Bernebeu & Camp Nou...those are the nights being a football fan is about, they live in the memory forever. I want those back.

How do we win the European Cup again & have more of those nights....if we don't finish 4th?

Plus being in the CL means attracting & affording better players which = a better team & more chance of winning leagues, FA Cups & League Cups going forward.


Not being in the CL is a major handicap, no matter what anyone says.

I'm not really aiming at discussing if we need to finish fourth right now, we have plenty of threads doing that.

What I'm trying to say is that there is something fundamentally wrong with the structure of modern football, when some crave finishing fourth so much more than winning a domestic cup - actually winning something!. I think football would be better of with only the league winners being in the CL, perhaps joined by the cup winners to make that even more attractive! Or some other form of arrangement to award trophy winners more.

Today CL-revenue is very important, and more important than winning trophies and that is a crazy way of organizing football IMO. A night like Sunday beats any feeling of 3rd or 4th, and the game should really change to reflect that and make it more attractive.

[Tee]

Last game of the season at Anfield v Chavs - If we finish 4th, boy will it be some atmosphere at Anfield!! It will feel like winning something given the season we have had so far.

[BootRoom]

Nonsense, if we had won 18 league cups and no league titles we'd be nothing.

League titles is how top clubs are measured in this country and CL qualification is very important for us to stand a chance of winning another one.

More important than winning a competition where top teams choose to rest players or develop their youngsters.

We developed our modern standing in the game by being the best team in the land for a signigicant length of time (allied to a shorter stint as debateably the best team in Europe); the league campaign was our bread and butter by which we measured ourselves against the rest of the country. We've got to do everything in our power to get to a position where we have a fighting chance to compete at the top again - and that includes exploiting the modern structure of football.

[greystoneslfc]

Some of the best nights I've had as fan have been in the 'lesser' competitions. The UEFA Cup of 2001 is one such example, Barcelona at home, Alaves in the final. Can tell you 11 years later exactly where I was and what I was doing. The 4-0 win vs Charlton to qualify us for the CL, not sure what I was doing. I know it was 0-0 at half time.

As for qualification for the CL being a means to an end, anybody remember 2005-2006 season?

[Craig_H]

Some of the best nights I've had as fan have been in the 'lesser' competitions. The UEFA Cup of 2001 is one such example, Barcelona at home, Alaves in the final. Can tell you 11 years later exactly where I was and what I was doing. The 4-0 win vs Charlton to qualify us for the CL, not sure what I was doing. I know it was 0-0 at half time.

As for qualification for the CL being a means to an end, anybody remember 2005-2006 season?

What about Istanbul or Athens? Real Madrid and Barcelona? Do you remember what you were doing, where you were sitting etc? Because without top four, those nights are gone.

[greystoneslfc]

True. But I'd much rather look back on 2001 than 2010! UEFA Cup vs Champions' League, winning the thing vs the abysmal showing we put up then.

Istanbul, even I'm old & senile and don't remember who I am, I'll remember it. Athens, unfortunately yes.

I can tell you where I was & what I was doing for every Cup final we've been in since 1986, and where I was for significant league games. But not where I was when we 'gloriously' managed to sneak 4th and finish a mere 30 points off the title and celebrated like we had won the Euromillions, no.

[Craig_H]

The point is though, we wont have many of those amazing nights/European Cup finals without finishing in the top four.

You cant have one without the other.