What football should be all about

[Fosterbloke]

It is not really true that players are simply available and just want to win things though, they want to play in the CL, I doubt many players would come to a team for the prospect of winning the league cup. The only way to over come that is to pay extortionate wages.

If a player's only aim is to play in the CL then they lack the right mentality.

They should want to play for Liverpool FC. Winning a cup is a real buzz even if it is the lowliest of the 4 on offer. We're not saying our main ambition is to go for the Carling Cup but it shows that we can win things and beat the best in Europe to get there.

I want to get into the CL too but I'm so excited that we won SOMETHING.

[RichC]

I can't believe how many people have totaly missed Darkons point here.

bewildering to say the least!

[Darkon]

Agree wholeheartedly with the O/P - Makes me Bloody annoyed actually that everyone harps on with such crap as Implying If we miss 4th for to long (or above 4th)? We'll Never get back in the C/L Or challenge for the title again - Really? That didn't stop United challenging for & Winning the damn thing in 1993 after We? Had relatively Recent experience back then of Years more in Europe at the Very top end comparative to them - Further? Didn't stop Spurs Or City more recently did it? And they? Effectively came from nowhere - Even Chelsea in 2003 at Our Expense in That game at the Bridge (where Gronkjaer scored?) launched the Whole sodding Abramovich era by qualifying for the CL after being Out of it for Five bloody years. So if They can all do it? Why can't we? Fact is we can - Just need to believe in ourselves & trophies (Our real reason for existing remember?) will certainly help in That.........................

Mind you forgot - Such level headed truths & concise facts? Don't fit all to well with the sensationalist "Prem, Prem, Prem/Sky Sports are the Gospel & Tyler/Redknapp are their prophets" Brigade do they? Sometimes I Swear without a crisis/impending fcukup or complete Reds Disaster On the pitch? Fully Half our fanbase (the ones that follow That way of thinking?) Will never be happy - And those people IMO just aren't Fit to be.......No I give up on them I really do.........................

Throws hands up in the air in complete despair then Walks off muttering to self. Sometimes? We don't know How lucky we are - We really don't - Most teams? Would give anything to win just One trophy every Few seaons & some (like Middlesbrough?) Have seen just One in more than a century - We by contrast? Aren't happy unless we're challenging for & winning multiple trophies ASAP Every year or couple of years. We've won 41 as of Sunday which is more than Anyone (including THEM) in English Footballing History - Is one of The biggest overall hauls in Europe and more than double what Everton have won Ever - Even Kenny's won more for us on his Own than Everton have in the past 50 odd years!! We should appreciate what we do get more & be happy when we get more as well as being hungry for it - I always remember one report in particular I read on our last league title whilst convalescing from Very severe illness a few years back - The report said "Liverpool celebrated their 18th & latest title like it was their first - Their happiness at winning it was clear for all to see & their hunger for more undimmed - It helps explain their longetivity as champions" I think yes, we Still have the hunger but we Need the enjoyment back before we'll scale those heights again & unfortunately? I think we're a little way from that as yet - Our current arrogance has seen to that.................

Forgot to say yesterday, bu good post

[BG1973]

all very true, but it must be better to actually win something. if you come 4th in the prem and qualify for the CL, but then get smashed and dont make the knock out stages you haven't really achieved much.

You will have achieved qualification though which means your transfer budget increases and more players will want to play for your club.

So even if you go out of the tournament early doors you are more likely to have a better domestic season and qualify the following year.

More likely to win MAJOR domestic trophies also.

The day anybody becomes satisfied with league cups is a very sad day for LFC.

[RichC]

Nobody has said their satisfied with that though. Missing Darkon's point entirely

[Mattshark]

Nobody has said their satisfied with that though. Missing Darkon's point entirely

I don't mind it, as I said before, I think Darkon's point is born of sentimentality.
The FA cup is very much won by predominately by CL qualifying teams btw showing it has value, the league cup has never been valued like the FA cup has, it just happens that European football structure has changed, personally I don't mind it.

FWIW I don't agree with RedShadow's post at all and his comparison between 1993 and now is a completely irrelevant one imo.
Spurs and City spent a **** load of money, but they have also used it quite wisely (Spurs also benefited from our decline)

[Exiled_red]

I would prefer a system where winning the cups again was considered prestigous by everyone in the game but in order to do that something has to be done with the rewards to make it so. The early rounds of the League Cup have been seen as an inconvenience for alot of clubs for the last few years, the FA Cup is going the same way. All everyone in the game is bothered about is money.

The lower league clubs want to progress in the cups because a draw against one of the big clubs could cover a significant proportion of their expenses for the season. The clubs at the lower end of the Premiership will often put weakened teams out, because avoiding relegation is their priority - the difference between being in the Premiership rather than the Championship is supposedly ~£40m, winning the FA Cup will give you probably less than £5m. A similar thing is true for the clubs looking for CL football, they too will put out weaker strength teams because the league (and CL qualification) is the priority. This has always been the case in domestic football, but previously the disparity in revenue between league positions, survival/relegation and making Europe or not was not as large as it is now. The game was more competitive back in the day, you used to see teams that had been promoted being able to challenge for the title, now the teams challenging for the title will almost certainly have been teams from the previous seasons top 4. This is what money has done to the game.

I don't see the process as being reversible the top clubs have alot of power they wouldn't vote for a more even split of money, the FA/Premier League wouldn't change things by offering the CL places to cup competitions because they want to protect their 4 places by having the best teams in there, even if it did the top clubs are so dominant it's unlikely to see things change - Since 1988 21 of 23 FA Cups have been won by Us, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City and Spurs (With the first 4 of those clubs accounting for 19 of the 21).

[BG1973]

Nobody has said their satisfied with that though. Missing Darkon's point entirely

I thought the first post in it's original guise was about winning a cup being preferential to qualifying for the CL. Plain and simple.

His later points were that it's sad that it has come to

Which it is.. but that's life.

[Darkon]

I would prefer a system where winning the cups again was considered prestigous by everyone in the game but in order to do that something has to be done with the rewards to make it so. The early rounds of the League Cup have been seen as an inconvenience for alot of clubs for the last few years, the FA Cup is going the same way. All everyone in the game is bothered about is money.

The lower league clubs want to progress in the cups because a draw against one of the big clubs could cover a significant proportion of their expenses for the season. The clubs at the lower end of the Premiership will often put weakened teams out, because avoiding relegation is their priority - the difference between being in the Premiership rather than the Championship is supposedly ~£40m, winning the FA Cup will give you probably less than £5m. A similar thing is true for the clubs looking for CL football, they too will put out weaker strength teams because the league (and CL qualification) is the priority. This has always been the case in domestic football, but previously the disparity in revenue between league positions, survival/relegation and making Europe or not was not as large as it is now. The game was more competitive back in the day, you used to see teams that had been promoted being able to challenge for the title, now the teams challenging for the title will almost certainly have been teams from the previous seasons top 4. This is what money has done to the game.

I don't see the process as being reversible the top clubs have alot of power they wouldn't vote for a more even split of money, the FA/Premier League wouldn't change things by offering the CL places to cup competitions because they want to protect their 4 places by having the best teams in there, even if it did the top clubs are so dominant it's unlikely to see things change - Since 1988 21 of 23 FA Cups have been won by Us, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City and Spurs (With the first 4 of those clubs accounting for 19 of the 21).

Good post, agree with by far most of it. I'm afraid that you are correct when saying that it's probably it can't be reversed now. We are stuck with a situation where secondary league positions are better valued and rewarded than winning competitions and it's to bad. Money control the game and we might as well get used to it.

It really has to start with UEFA changing their structure, but again the money greedy top clubs will never allow that to happen (ourselves included). Only other way it can change is if supporters take action, but that is a bit far fetched, and well it's only football I would still prefer using a voice and ressources on something more important in the end.

[Daniel 7]

On the other hand there seems to be a backlash against treating minor competitions with contempt amongst fans and this has manifested itself in bigger teams taking any silverware available more seriously.

Best example of this is in Spain recently - look at Real over the last few years. They have gone out to lower league opposition in the Copa because they really didn't take it seriously and were more interested in the money spinners - league position and Champions League. Last season saw stronger line ups and a hugely competitive final against Barca, who had effectively locked out the silverware for them at both domestinc and European level. The fans wanted a trophy and they got one. Similair with Barca this season - sure their lineups in the earlier rounds of the Copa this season were squad orientated, they were using it to blood youngsters. As soon as Real pulled ahead and they faced bigger / more challenging opposition, they ramped up their interest and strengthened. The Barca v Real Copa games were brilliant. Barca won't win the league this season, so domestically, the Copa is all they have.

Arsenal were similair last season, as were Liverpool this season. Trophies are becoming like a cartel. If you can get one, fantastic. Fans want success and to see a cup or whatever.

I've even heard Arsenal fans talking defeatist bollocks on the radio, claiming their "trophies" are 4th place and their new stadium. How pathetic is that? The biggest culprits of this **** mentality are NUFC - parading Michael Owen around to their unemployed bludgers like he was the 1970 Fairs Cup.

Fans are essentially desperate for something to hold on to. Finance has played its part - the billionaire's cartels are blocking out trophies, leaving **** all for those that can't compete financially to cling on to.

Myself - I'd rather plump for 4th place and have the Champions League back. Some of those games have given me the greatest pleasure I've ever had as a Liverpool fan. I'm still a bit nonplussed by the Carling Cup. Sure it was nice and all, but if we back it up by cementing 4th place this season, I'll be a lot happier.