What football should be all about

[greystoneslfc]

That isn't what either myself or Darkon are talking about though. Obviously, the CL won't be available without top 4, and I, like I'm sure all of ye, miss the great European nights of 5/6 seasons ago. BUT, in 10 years time when I'm asked about this season, will I remember winning silverware first, or trailing into a distant fourth?

Done to death above, nobody is disputing the importance financially of the CL, but I'll still always remember silverware ahead of anything else.

[greystoneslfc]

Houllier!! WTF?

[Redshadow]

Agree wholeheartedly with the O/P - Makes me Bloody annoyed actually that everyone harps on with such crap as Implying If we miss 4th for to long (or above 4th)? We'll Never get back in the C/L Or challenge for the title again - Really? That didn't stop United challenging for & Winning the damn thing in 1993 after We? Had relatively Recent experience back then of Years more in Europe at the Very top end comparative to them - Further? Didn't stop Spurs Or City more recently did it? And they? Effectively came from nowhere - Even Chelsea in 2003 at Our Expense in That game at the Bridge (where Gronkjaer scored?) launched the Whole sodding Abramovich era by qualifying for the CL after being Out of it for Five bloody years. So if They can all do it? Why can't we? Fact is we can - Just need to believe in ourselves & trophies (Our real reason for existing remember?) will certainly help in That.........................

Mind you forgot - Such level headed truths & concise facts? Don't fit all to well with the sensationalist "Prem, Prem, Prem/Sky Sports are the Gospel & Tyler/Redknapp are their prophets" Brigade do they? Sometimes I Swear without a crisis/impending fcukup or complete Reds Disaster On the pitch? Fully Half our fanbase (the ones that follow That way of thinking?) Will never be happy - And those people IMO just aren't Fit to be.......No I give up on them I really do.........................

Throws hands up in the air in complete despair then Walks off muttering to self. Sometimes? We don't know How lucky we are - We really don't - Most teams? Would give anything to win just One trophy every Few seaons & some (like Middlesbrough?) Have seen just One in more than a century - We by contrast? Aren't happy unless we're challenging for & winning multiple trophies ASAP Every year or couple of years. We've won 41 as of Sunday which is more than Anyone (including THEM) in English Footballing History - Is one of The biggest overall hauls in Europe and more than double what Everton have won Ever - Even Kenny's won more for us on his Own than Everton have in the past 50 odd years!! We should appreciate what we do get more & be happy when we get more as well as being hungry for it - I always remember one report in particular I read on our last league title whilst convalescing from Very severe illness a few years back - The report said "Liverpool celebrated their 18th & latest title like it was their first - Their happiness at winning it was clear for all to see & their hunger for more undimmed - It helps explain their longetivity as champions" I think yes, we Still have the hunger but we Need the enjoyment back before we'll scale those heights again & unfortunately? I think we're a little way from that as yet - Our current arrogance has seen to that.................

[Craig_H]

That isn't what either myself or Darkon are talking about though. Obviously, the CL won't be available without top 4, and I, like I'm sure all of ye, miss the great European nights of 5/6 seasons ago. BUT, in 10 years time when I'm asked about this season, will I remember winning silverware first, or trailing into a distant fourth?

Done to death above, nobody is disputing the importance financially of the CL, but I'll still always remember silverware ahead of anything else.

And the European Cup IS silverware isnt it?

[greystoneslfc]

Of course it is Craig. Has been said ad nauseam on here, which is why I don't post much - don't like repeating things over & over, but it hasn't exactly helped the likes of Arsenal or Valencia. When was the last time they WON anything. No matter what they say, their best players are available to be bought, BECAUSE they (the players) want to win things. I appreciate the logic of CL football = greater exposure = better players = increased chances of winning. BUT, I will ALWAYS be on the side of silverware in the cabinet first and foremost. That is now, and has always been my viewpoint regarding Liverpool, and I am at a loss as to why anyone would view it differently, as I'm sure you are in regards to me not seeing 4th as 'all important'.

[Mattshark]

Of course it is Craig. Has been said ad nauseam on here, which is why I don't post much - don't like repeating things over & over, but it hasn't exactly helped the likes of Arsenal or Valencia. When was the last time they WON anything. No matter what they say, their best players are available to be bought, BECAUSE they (the players) want to win things. I appreciate the logic of CL football = greater exposure = better players = increased chances of winning. BUT, I will ALWAYS be on the side of silverware in the cabinet first and foremost. That is now, and has always been my viewpoint regarding Liverpool, and I am at a loss as to why anyone would view it differently, as I'm sure you are in regards to me not seeing 4th as 'all important'.

It is not really true that players are simply available and just want to win things though, they want to play in the CL, I doubt many players would come to a team for the prospect of winning the league cup. The only way to over come that is to pay extortionate wages.

[Phoenix07]

Agree wholeheartedly with the O/P - Makes me Bloody annoyed actually that everyone harps on with such crap as Implying If we miss 4th for to long (or above 4th)? We'll Never get back in the C/L Or challenge for the title again - Really? That didn't stop United challenging for & Winning the damn thing in 1993 after We? Had relatively Recent experience back then of Years more in Europe at the Very top end comparative to them - Further? Didn't stop Spurs Or City more recently did it? And they? Effectively came from nowhere - Even Chelsea in 2003 at Our Expense in That game at the Bridge (where Gronkjaer scored?) launched the Whole sodding Abramovich era by qualifying for the CL after being Out of it for Five bloody years. So if They can all do it? Why can't we? Fact is we can - Just need to believe in ourselves & trophies (Our real reason for existing remember?) will certainly help in That.........................

Mind you forgot - Such level headed truths & concise facts? Don't fit all to well with the sensationalist "Prem, Prem, Prem/Sky Sports are the Gospel & Tyler/Redknapp are their prophets" Brigade do they? Sometimes I Swear without a crisis/impending fcukup or complete Reds Disaster On the pitch? Fully Half our fanbase (the ones that follow That way of thinking?) Will never be happy - And those people IMO just aren't Fit to be.......No I give up on them I really do.........................

Throws hands up in the air in complete despair then Walks off muttering to self. Sometimes? We don't know How lucky we are - We really don't - Most teams? Would give anything to win just One trophy every Few seaons & some (like Middlesbrough?) Have seen just One in more than a century - We by contrast? Aren't happy unless we're challenging for & winning multiple trophies ASAP Every year or couple of years. We've won 41 as of Sunday which is more than Anyone (including THEM) in English Footballing History - Is one of The biggest overall hauls in Europe and more than double what Everton have won Ever - Even Kenny's won more for us on his Own than Everton have in the past 50 odd years!! We should appreciate what we do get more & be happy when we get more as well as being hungry for it - I always remember one report in particular I read on our last league title whilst convalescing from Very severe illness a few years back - The report said "Liverpool celebrated their 18th & latest title like it was their first - Their happiness at winning it was clear for all to see & their hunger for more undimmed - It helps explain their longetivity as champions" I think yes, we Still have the hunger but we Need the enjoyment back before we'll scale those heights again & unfortunately? I think we're a little way from that as yet - Our current arrogance has seen to that.................

I hope people take the time to read this. A cracking post in my opinion.

I have seen a few of our fans take this for granted, but we never should. We should enjoy this and get a feel for winning again.

[danperkins]

I'd take 4th place and no silverware over winning the league cup any day. It's great to win any cup but i want to see LFC back competing in the best tournaments, against the best teams and in turn helping to attract the best of players. No doubts winning the league cup is a bonus to Kenny, Comolli & Henry, but the real goal surely must be getting back into the champions league "now" and not in a few years time.

2008/2009 was the last time we were in the competition, the longer we go without being in the champs league, the more top class players we will lose and the harder it will be to attract top players to the club.

[Exiled_red]

I agree with the sentement of the original post, of course winning trophies are the days you remember, you remember with fondness the winning of any trophy be it the league cup or Champions League. Hardly anyone remembers all the occasions we clinched a Champions League place, or looks back on them with any significant amount of affection. The buzz of winning a trophy is fantastic for the fans and a boost to the players.

That said clinching a Champions League place is very important and perhaps more significant than winning a cup competition (like it or not). The way the game has gone over recent years Champions League football is key to progressing towards the goal of winning the league title, which is our ultimate aim. A lack of Champions League football means you are unable to attract the best players because i) the best players want to be in the CL and ii) being in the champions league provides to money to go after top players, also and perhaps as important is being in the CL allows you to keep your best players. The financial gap between the teams that are in the CL regularly and those who aren't is quite wide and getting wider (unless the have owners throwing money at them), if we want to compete for league titles we need to have CL to do it. Personally I don't see making the Champions League as an achievement, I see not making it as a failure.

The comparison of cups and a CL spot is an interesting one and I think your perspective changes depedning on your situation, I think under Rafa we were taking CL qualification for granted somewhat and we craved a trophy, having not been in the CL for a couple of years we have realised how significant it is. I think it is a sad situation that this is what football has come to (4th place being more important than a cup) but that is the way it is now. I'd love to see a return to the days where winning a trophy was more important that qualifying for the CL but the money in the game has prevented it. Personally I'd like a return to the days of the 3 European trophies with 1 team in the European Cup, 1 in the Cup winners Cup and 2 or 3 in the UEFA Cup.

[Mattshark]

Personally I don't see making the Champions League as an achievement, I see not making it as a failure.

[Craig_H]

Of course it is Craig. Has been said ad nauseam on here, which is why I don't post much - don't like repeating things over & over, but it hasn't exactly helped the likes of Arsenal or Valencia. When was the last time they WON anything. No matter what they say, their best players are available to be bought, BECAUSE they (the players) want to win things. I appreciate the logic of CL football = greater exposure = better players = increased chances of winning. BUT, I will ALWAYS be on the side of silverware in the cabinet first and foremost. That is now, and has always been my viewpoint regarding Liverpool, and I am at a loss as to why anyone would view it differently, as I'm sure you are in regards to me not seeing 4th as 'all important'.

I've already explained why anyone might view it differently.

It's because consistent CL participation = a MUCH greater and more realistic chance of winning silverware on a regular basis.

What you want is silverware - and regular CL football increases the chances of that dramatically.

[Craig_H]

I agree with the sentement of the original post, of course winning trophies are the days you remember, you remember with fondness the winning of any trophy be it the league cup or Champions League. Hardly anyone remembers all the occasions we clinched a Champions League place, or looks back on them with any significant amount of affection. The buzz of winning a trophy is fantastic for the fans and a boost to the players.

That said clinching a Champions League place is very important and perhaps more significant than winning a cup competition (like it or not). The way the game has gone over recent years Champions League football is key to progressing towards the goal of winning the league title, which is our ultimate aim. A lack of Champions League football means you are unable to attract the best players because i) the best players want to be in the CL and ii) being in the champions league provides to money to go after top players, also and perhaps as important is being in the CL allows you to keep your best players. The financial gap between the teams that are in the CL regularly and those who aren't is quite wide and getting wider (unless the have owners throwing money at them), if we want to compete for league titles we need to have CL to do it. Personally I don't see making the Champions League as an achievement, I see not making it as a failure.

The comparison of cups and a CL spot is an interesting one and I think your perspective changes depedning on your situation, I think under Rafa we were taking CL qualification for granted somewhat and we craved a trophy, having not been in the CL for a couple of years we have realised how significant it is. I think it is a sad situation that this is what football has come to (4th place being more important than a cup) but that is the way it is now. I'd love to see a return to the days where winning a trophy was more important that qualifying for the CL but the money in the game has prevented it. Personally I'd like a return to the days of the 3 European trophies with 1 team in the European Cup, 1 in the Cup winners Cup and 2 or 3 in the UEFA Cup.

[Darkon]

I can see how it was inevitable that this derailed in to a discussion about finishing fourth vs a cup. I was really aiming at discussing whether the football structure is completely ****ed up when a season of finishing fourth can be more attractive than actually winning something.

There is something fundamentally wrong with football when that is how some feel. Shouldn't cups be awarded higher than finishing 3rd or 4th, award the great cup nights and winning something higher than a boring 4th place finish.

The root of the sport has been destryoed by the fact that revenue is deemed more important than winning a tournament. It's not really about cup vs fourth (makes no point that distinction anyways), it's about how UEFA have ****ed up the basic of the sport.

[Craig_H]

I agree that it's **** how 4th place is more rewarding and more important than winning cups. But that's how it's become now. I dont like it but it's the reality and it wont change anytime soon.

But mate, you're mistaken when you say revenue is more important than winning a tournament - it isnt. It's just that nowadays, to win tournaments (consistently at least) you need top players and they cost money. The CL generates money. So money isnt more important than winning tournaments. It's just something of a necessity if you WANT to be winning tournaments. It's a means to an end.

Simple as that really.

[rudedog]

I can't believe how many people have totaly missed Darkons point here.