Rafa Watch

[Bender]

Henry Winter @henrywinter
Ferguson was asked whether he had 'any sympathy' for Benitez's situation at #cfc. 'I'm not going to kick anyone when they are lying down'

[Neil Young]

Clearly implying he'd quite happily kick him if Benitez was in midair and winning the ball, etc.

[fah-q]

Clearly implying he'd quite happily kick him if Benitez was in midair and winning the ball, etc.

[Kenneth]

Oh god you're sucking me in. Sure he's getting a hard time at Chelsea because their fans are idiots. But Rafa is anything but stupid, he knew what he was walking into and went there to further his own interests. And I'm sure he's being paid a fortune for it.

I'm not at all saying we shouldn't give him a great welcome. Of course we should. But while the game is being played we should be trying to support our team and our current players / manager, not the opposition manager. **** that, seriously. You think Rafa's not going to try to beat us that day? You think us chanting his name mightn't actually encourage some of Chelsea's ****** players to try even harder to beat us to stick it to us (and even him in a way)? Maybe if we're winning 5-0 we could afford a Rafa chant, but otherwise nah, he's on the other team that day. Give him a standing ovation AFTER the game.

Another

[AnfieldForever]

Oh god you're sucking me in. Sure he's getting a hard time at Chelsea because their fans are idiots. But Rafa is anything but stupid, he knew what he was walking into and went there to further his own interests. And I'm sure he's being paid a fortune for it.

I'm not at all saying we shouldn't give him a great welcome. Of course we should. But while the game is being played we should be trying to support our team and our current players / manager, not the opposition manager. **** that, seriously. You think Rafa's not going to try to beat us that day? You think us chanting his name mightn't actually encourage some of Chelsea's ****** players to try even harder to beat us to stick it to us (and even him in a way)? Maybe if we're winning 5-0 we could afford a Rafa chant, but otherwise nah, he's on the other team that day. Give him a standing ovation AFTER the game.

[barnes10]

if we do sing in support of rafa, it won't rile chelsea fans, it'll just make them respond along the lines of 'you're welcome to him' 'he's sh1t and you know he is' ' chelsea reject' etc etc.

defo against singing for him during the match. beforehand we should give him a great reception and that should be it.

[G]

We should sing the Rafa song when he comes out at the start immediately followed by **** off Chelsea FC and then our songs for the rest of the game.

[Norbs]

Chelsea expect to beat us, they believe they are better and that it's their rightful place. If we lose after having chanted in support of their manager then it'll have served only to make us look stupid. We just don't need to show our support of their manager when our own is clearly still finding his feet

[danperkins]

Oh god you're sucking me in. Sure he's getting a hard time at Chelsea because their fans are idiots. But Rafa is anything but stupid, he knew what he was walking into and went there to further his own interests. And I'm sure he's being paid a fortune for it.

I'm not at all saying we shouldn't give him a great welcome. Of course we should. But while the game is being played we should be trying to support our team and our current players / manager, not the opposition manager. **** that, seriously. You think Rafa's not going to try to beat us that day? You think us chanting his name mightn't actually encourage some of Chelsea's ****** players to try even harder to beat us to stick it to us (and even him in a way)? Maybe if we're winning 5-0 we could afford a Rafa chant, but otherwise nah, he's on the other team that day. Give him a standing ovation AFTER the game.

[Daniel 7]

Didn't the Kop give Houllier a song before the game when he was Villa manager? Rafa deserves at least that and more, he did more for us than Gerard did.

[Liverpel]

Clearly implying he'd quite happily kick him if Benitez was in midair and winning the ball, etc.

Very good

[Muddled]

Man Utd v Chelsea: How Ferguson and Benitez's relationship soured

The forecast is, fittingly, for frost when Rafael Benitez and Sir Alex Ferguson meet at Old Trafford on Sunday.

But then any semblance of warmth and friendship disappeared some time ago, blown away in a blaze of seismic sound-bites, bullish barbs and the incredible pressures of the Premier League's psychological battle.

Benitez picks up the pace

Benitez failed to win any of his first eight Premier League matches against Ferguson. But once he did, five months before his "facts rant", he won three of the next four.
Source: Opta Sports

Sunday's FA Cup quarter-final between Manchester United and Chelsea marks the latest chapter in a managerial rivalry that may always be best remembered for Benitez's "facts" speech in 2009. But for Ferguson, managerial jousting is part of the game.

Those who have been to the 71-year-old's home often talk about his library of books.

There, on tightly packed shelves alongside Harry Truman's memoirs and biographies about Muhammad Ali, John F Kennedy, Nelson Mandela and Frank Sinatra, is a well-thumbed book written by Vince Lombardi, the legendary former coach of the Green Bay Packers American football team.

Ferguson's record v Benitez

No code has to be inserted here.
Past league meetings

Sept 2004: Man Utd 2-1 Liverpool
Jan 2005: Liverpool 0-1 Man Utd
Sept 2005: Liverpool 0-0 Man Utd
Jan 2006: Man Utd 1-0 Liverpool
Oct 2006: Man Utd 2-0 Liverpool
March 2007: Liverpool 0-1 Man Utd
Dec 2007: Liverpool 0-1 Man Utd
March 2008: Man Utd 3-0 Liverpool
Sept 2008: Liverpool 2-1 Man Utd
March 2009: Man Utd 1-4 Liverpool
Oct 2009: Liverpool 2-0 Man Utd
March 2010: Man Utd 2-1 Liverpool

In When Pride Still Mattered, Lombardi writes: "You never win a game unless you beat the guy in front of you. The score on the board doesn't mean a thing. That's for the fans. You've got to win the war with the man in front of you. You've got to get your man."

In the early years, that meant Kenny Dalglish at Blackburn Rovers and Kevin Keegan at Newcastle United. Then came Arsene Wenger at Arsenal and Jose Mourinho at Chelsea. And when, in 2008, Liverpool began to get under Ferguson's skin by climbing to the top of the Premier League table, it became inevitable Benitez would follow.

Their relationship was not always heated, however. The men first met in 1999 when, out of work after his departure from the now defunct Extremadura in 1999, Benitez and his right-hand man, Pako Ayesteran, spent a week at United's Carrington training ground watching and learning from Ferguson and his assistant at the time, Steve McClaren.

The friendship continued even when Benitez became Liverpool manager. Ferguson sat next to his Liverpool counterpart on a flight to Geneva that season, where they spent a few hours talking football, business and wine.

When Benitez lifted the Champions League trophy in his first full season at Anfield, it was Ferguson who wrote him a congratulatory letter, complete with tactical breakdown of Liverpool's victory over AC Milan. "He can teach me more than I can teach him," Benitez said at the time.

Analysis

There has been a lot said between the two. I expect them to shake hands before the game, as they always do, even though it is clear that there is not a great deal of love lost between these men.

It wasn't until 2007 that the first cracks in the relationship appeared during Liverpool's protracted and ultimately fruitless pursuit of Gabriel Heinze, the United defender.

Benitez was attempting to make the Argentine the first senior player to move between the rivals since Phil Chisnall left Old Trafford in 1964.

Ferguson had other ideas, though, and United accused their rivals of an illegal approach. It ended in a mess.

But even then, in December 2007, Ferguson was quick to defend Benitez as it emerged Liverpool co-owners George Gillett Jr and Tom Hicks held talks with Jurgen Klinsmann. "What happened with [Klinsmann] was a bad piece of business on Liverpool's part," Ferguson said.

"That sort of thing can be very upsetting for a manager. You should allow a manager to get on with his job. One thing for sure is that Rafa has brought in a lot of his players because of Spanish connections. Now if an English manager was to come into Liverpool, that connection is gone. What happens then?"

Sir Alex v Rafa - quotes

Benitez on Ferguson

"That Mr Ferguson organises the fixtures in his office and sends it to us and everyone will know and cannot complain. That is simple."

"Their success was down to the money they were spending. If you analyse the transfer record ... £30m for a young player or a centre back. Every year they [United] are very well-off."

Ferguson on Benitez

"He is very lucky because on his CV in two weeks' time he could have two world championships to his name - and has had nothing to do with the teams."

"I wasn't surprised at all that Liverpool changed their manager in the summer. I think everyone expected it even though Benitez had signed a new contract."

The relationship remained cordial while Liverpool struggled to get near United on the field and in the league table. Benitez had been in England for four years before in 2008 he finally managed to get the better of Ferguson in a Premier League match, having only previously beaten him in a 2006 FA Cup fifth-round tie.

Benitez, then in his fifth season at Anfield, must have known that he was finally getting to Ferguson when he heard the United manager question - in the club's official magazine, no less - whether Liverpool, without a league title since 1990, would have the mental strength to last the course and preserve their lead.

"There's no doubt in the second half of the season they will get nervous," Ferguson said.

There was also criticism of the £20m outlay on Robbie Keane and the Spaniard's spending. "There will be a spending splurge at Liverpool, that is Benitez's way."

"Something is different," Benitez said of their relationship at that time. "We are higher in the table. Before it was OK but now it is not too much."

It all came to a head shortly after lunchtime on Friday 9 January, 2009. At the time, Liverpool were three points ahead of Chelsea and seven in front of third-placed United, who had two games in hand. Benitez claimed Ferguson received preferential treatment from the football authorities and the rest is well documented.

"Everyone can see that I'm talking about facts," the Liverpool manager said famously. "I'm just saying things that everybody can see."

What is less well-publicised are the reasons why. In the days leading up to his comments, Benitez had been told by a source close to a number of the United camp that there was some disharmony in the squad. This attack, from what he saw as a position of strength, was an attempt to wedge open the divide. A failed attempt, as it happened.

Liverpool took just 13 points from the next 24 available before the teams next met in the league. "I would need to read more of Freud before I could understand all that went on in his head," Ferguson said. The next day, Benitez's side won 4-1 at Old Trafford. "I read about Freud when I was at school and university," Benitez replied.

United had the last laugh, however, winning the title for the third season in a row. Benitez would never recover and had left Anfield within 14 months.

"I think *everybody expected it to happen and for him to go," Ferguson would say later.

But now Benitez is back. It took the United manager all of 48 hours to pass comment on his appointment by Chelsea in November, describing him as a lucky manager. Since then, both have made comments, and more will no doubt come over the course of the weekend.

Ferguson, like Lombardi, has always come out on top in these "mind games" and on Sunday another chapter begins against the man in front of him - Benitez.

Link: The Beeb

EDIT: I can't do tables as good as rcasemore.

[fred_plasticine]

we shouldn't sing the rafa song while he's manager of a prem team.
give him a very warm reception? definitely. but we should concentrate on our own. and rafa's not one of us, he's with chelasea now.
i'd really love this rafa thing to be put to bed for good. it's wierd, it's a bit embarrassing, it's divorced from reality, it's just the oposite of chelsea but every bit as inappropriate. all imho of course.

[Red_Polo]

We do it with returning managers and players all the time. The only reason anyone feels weird about this is there's a lingering sense in some folks minds that he should still be here. But that shouldn't affect how we receive him, and singing Rafa songs prior to KO before getting behind our guys would leave no room for misinterpretation.

[MrMichael]

EDIT: I can't do tables as good as rcasemore.

Rcasemores' suck too

The full "instructions" for the table mod: http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showp...70&postcount=2