Boxing

[Doc_Piptorious]

Watch Canelo get the decision after eating jabs for 12 rounds.

Maybe not, but 115-113 is still generous...

The scoring was a disgrace. Did not see that win coming pre fight but Bivol was at least 8 rounds ahead for me. He dominated the fight and worked his jab all night long.

I had fully expected Ginger to win by a few clear rounds, but Bivol was excellent. Too quick, far too strong and tactically really good. Stuck to his game plan all fight long too and was able to tweak it any time Ginger tried to work a way inside.

[Doc_Piptorious]

I'd challenge the two in bold. I'd put Canelo around 10th. Good fighter but for me he lost to (at least) Lara, Jacobs, Mayweather, Golovkin x2 and now Bivol. His record reads two defeats but that's 6 in my books. Obviously really good but no one would be swooning over him without the gift decisions.

Josh Taylor hasn't even fought 20 times as a pro and just had his face smashed in by a domestic level fighter. Hasn't fought Zepeda, Hooker etc. Apart from the Ramirez and Prograis (many people scored this a draw or the other way) fights, what has he done that other's in the division couldn't?

Taylor I really rate in terms of the physical tools
he has and the in ring intelligence he usually shows (last fight against Catterall notwithstanding).

What has he done in the division that others could not have done. Give Ramirez his only loss for one thing. Gave Prograis his only loss. Gave Kongsong his only loss, gave Baranchyk his first loss.

Taylor might only have 19 fights to his name and whilst he robbed Catterall ino, the rest of his fights have more than a few good fighters in there that he beat when others could not.

I don't like what happened with Catterall or how Taylor has responded to that result, but I also cannot look at Taylor box and Taylor fight and not think he is a high calibre boxer.


As for Ginger making number six on my list. It was done begrudgingly as I could not honestly say at the time I made the list that the four names I put after him are better P4Pers than him imo. He would drop on my list after last night's result though

[marcus50bucks]

One step too far for Canelo imo. Fans that know their boxing would have known that Canelo was going to have his hands full. Bivol is very good and strong.

Canelo needs to go back down to 168. He won't beat Bivol in a rematch. Also the 115-113 scorecard was a complete and utter joke. It should have been wider than that.

[Doc_Piptorious]

One step too far for Canelo imo. Fans that know their boxing would have known that Canelo was going to have his hands full. Bivol is very good and strong.

Canelo needs to go back down to 168. He won't beat Bivol in a rematch. Also the 115-113 scorecard was a complete and utter joke. It should have been wider than that.

Bivol is a good fighter, but pre fight I saw him as not being as good technically as Ginger and I certainly did not expect him to be able to maintain a gameplan as well as he did against Ginger.

Not to mention I expected Ginger to get all the decisions in his favour along with very dodgy scoring (we got the latter but thankfully it was not enough to change the result).

Bivol really impressed though. He deserved to have had an overwhelming win on the cards. He won at least eight rounds clearly and there were three rounds that were close as Bivol took his foot off of the gas a bit during them but he never looked in trouble at any point and you always got the impression that if Ginger upped the pace that Bivol had a few more gears to go through. I gave only one round all fight to Ginger.

[marcus50bucks]

I agree with what you said mate.

[Doc_Piptorious]

I agree with what you said mate.

Only bad thing with Bivol winning is I don't get to see Ginger in a ring with Usyk now. Not a chance he will go into a ring at 201 lbs after what Bivol did to him at 175lbs.

[marcus50bucks]

Only bad thing with Bivol winning is I don't get to see Ginger in a ring with Usyk now. Not a chance he will go into a ring at 201 lbs after what Bivol did to him at 175lbs.

Yes, you're right. There is absolutely no chance he fights Usyk.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Yes, you're right. There is absolutely no chance he fights Usyk.

And now zero chance of him going after the light heavies who are currently better than Bivol either now

I really really wanted to see him in the ring with Usyk.


****er is going to go back to having special sauce on his steaks and going after guys who are either over the hill or having to be weight drained to meet him.

Probably call Bivol out for a rematch but only if Bivol makes middleweight for it and is not allowed to use one arm.

[spud_gun]

With hindsight it appears that Alvarez and his camp got a bit carried away with his foray into light heavy against the ghost of Kovalev.

They should never have put him in with a 'live' light heavy

[spud_gun]

Josh Taylor hasn't even fought 20 times as a pro and just had his face smashed in by a domestic level fighter. Hasn't fought Zepeda, Hooker etc. Apart from the Ramirez and Prograis (many people scored this a draw or the other way) fights, what has he done that other's in the division couldn't?

A shaded of 'what have the Roman's ever done for us?'

You're right though, aside from becoming the undisputed super welterweight and in doing so defeating two previously undefeated champions he hasn't done much

[Zapater]

Taylor I really rate in terms of the physical tools
he has and the in ring intelligence he usually shows (last fight against Catterall notwithstanding).

What has he done in the division that others could not have done. Give Ramirez his only loss for one thing. Gave Prograis his only loss. Gave Kongsong his only loss, gave Baranchyk his first loss.

Taylor might only have 19 fights to his name and whilst he robbed Catterall ino, the rest of his fights have more than a few good fighters in there that he beat when others could not.

I don't like what happened with Catterall or how Taylor has responded to that result, but I also cannot look at Taylor box and Taylor fight and not think he is a high calibre boxer.

A shaded of 'what have the Roman's ever done for us?'

You're right though, aside from becoming the undisputed super welterweight and in doing so defeating two previously undefeated champions he hasn't done much

I'm not doubting that he's a quality fighter. I agree with that. I just don't think his exploits justify his inclusion in the top 5 P4P. Many fighters have put two great wins together and no one considers them elite in the game. Taylor's moving up in weight, I think that light welterweight to welterweight is the hardest jump in boxing. Let's see if he still has what made him good. I suspect it will neutralise a lot of his assets.

And for what it's worth, the Romans took everything from them, their fathers and their father's fathers. Exactly the opposite of Taylor taking from half a set of fathers. I also gave him credit for great wins (although one could have been a draw) upfront, so my logic is actually the opposite of that

If you don't love someone these days, people assume you hate them. There's a huge difference between being the best in the world and being ****, so not thinking the one doesn't indefinitely lead to the other. Definitely "high calibre" in my books.

[Zapater]

I also don't see any advocation for the other all time greats he beat to be included in pound for pound lists.

[Doc_Piptorious]

I'm not doubting that he's a quality fighter. I agree with that. I just don't think his exploits justify his inclusion in the top 5 P4P. Many fighters have put two great wins together and no one considers them elite in the game. Taylor's moving up in weight, I think that light welterweight to welterweight is the hardest jump in boxing. Let's see if he still has what made him good. I suspect it will neutralise a lot of his assets.

And for what it's worth, the Romans took everything from them, their fathers and their father's fathers. Exactly the opposite of Taylor taking from half a set of fathers. I also gave him credit for great wins (although one could have been a draw) upfront, so my logic is actually the opposite of that

If you don't love someone these days, people assume you hate them. There's a huge difference between being the best in the world and being ****, so not thinking the one doesn't indefinitely lead to the other. Definitely "high calibre" in my books.

The thing is, a lot of those I ranked below him I simply do not see as being high level all rounders on the same level as him.

I look at him fight, how he positions himself in the ring, how he uses his feet, how he throws, how he is when he is not throwing, the variety of punches, the raw heart he displays, the way he problem solves on the fly (Last fight aside), the way his style has evolved and how he has become better as all aspects of ring work fight by fight.

Then I look at other in his division and in other divisions and I find it difficult to rank them above him.

Him vs Spence I think would be a barnburner and though I would favour Spence, it is not not a huge amount. Crawford is the one I would see as a bridge too far for him.

Would love to see a few more P4P lists in her from you and other regulars just to get a feeling who people rate.

Now they would of course not be as prestigious as the Jaco P Official P4P Listings but would be cool to find out who rates who and the differences in the lists.


Totally agree with the bit I highlighted in your post too. Light welter to welter is possibly one if not the hardest one weight jump in the sport right now. You make that jump these days and you do not have just one genuine P4P guy waiting for you, you get two and probably the two best p4p guys around at present.

But then the welters have always had special men striding amongst them and may well be the most consistent division since it's formation for having genuine P4P sharks roaming it's waters.


Was just doing a quick namecheck in my head, and in the years I have loved boxing I cannot think of a single decade in which the welter division did not have greats within it. Guys who would have not looked out of place in any welter era. In Crawford and Spence I think we have two guys that you could drop into the welters of the 1970s, the 1980s and so on and they would be right up there in the mix against the best of the best.

Just imagine Crawford against a prime Leonard or a prime Benitez at Welter. Mouth watering fictional fight fare. Or Spence trying to figure out Hearns at Welter.

[spud_gun]

I'm not doubting that he's a quality fighter. I agree with that. I just don't think his exploits justify his inclusion in the top 5 P4P. Many fighters have put two great wins together and no one considers them elite in the game. Taylor's moving up in weight, I think that light welterweight to welterweight is the hardest jump in boxing. Let's see if he still has what made him good. I suspect it will neutralise a lot of his assets.

And for what it's worth, the Romans took everything from them, their fathers and their father's fathers. Exactly the opposite of Taylor taking from half a set of fathers. I also gave him credit for great wins (although one could have been a draw) upfront, so my logic is actually the opposite of that

If you don't love someone these days, people assume you hate them. There's a huge difference between being the best in the world and being ****, so not thinking the one doesn't indefinitely lead to the other. Definitely "high calibre" in my books.

Not suggesting you hate him

Just curious as to what achievements would be deem worthy for inclusion in the P4P list?

Multiple weight champion?
Unified / Undisputed champion at a weight?

Thing about P4P lists and boxing in general is that it's so subjective - as we've seen on this very thread.

[spud_gun]

In Crawford and Spence I think we have two guys that you could drop into the welters of the 1970s, the 1980s and so on and they would be right up there in the mix against the best of the best.

Just imagine Crawford against a prime Leonard or a prime Benitez at Welter. Mouth watering fictional fight fare. Or Spence trying to figure out Hearns at Welter.

I'm not sure Spence has done enough to justify inclusion in such a discussion.

Who's his best win at welter? Brook? Porter? a blown up Mikey Garcia?