The Rugby Thread

[Cormack74]

Wow. Instead of providing a statement win, England lose to Fiji. Is this the lowest ebb for English Rugby?

Well I haven't been hiding from this - there seems to be a perception that England fans are exaggerating how bad things are.

First ever loss to Fiji shows the opposite

It's actually a shame that Borthwick picked his squad so early, we could have gone with the kids (as I suggested for the 6N). At least we'd get something out of the tournament as opposed to limping out in the group stage (or by some miracle) in the first knockout round.

[Cormack74]

Oh and it's not just that we struggle to score, we're shipping an average of 4 tries per game currently.

Where do you even start . . .

[Cormack74]

Just looking at a rugby forum, the consensus is that having lost to Fiji then the Samoa game is now 50:50.

Apparently we were 9:1 not to get out of our group before today. If I'd known I'd have had a couple of quid on that, but I suspect the odds have shortened somewhat.

[Buzzo]

We played well second half - 15 mins of us playing full throttle pretty much did for Georgia. And most importantly no injuries that I am aware of.

I think the biggest issue England have is that the Premiership is no longer as strong as perceived. And then the English teams are not dominating in Europe and therefor not being tested at that level. The standard in the URC is high, if not the attendances, and particularly now we have the South African teams it has definitely raised the standard.

I agree though Englands issues are in scoring and I’m not conceding. How they gin in the World Cup is totally unpredictable now. But their is a lack of craft, and then when those big Fijian centres and pack got going they were making meters every single carry.

[Buzzo]

Ireland with shaky first half also (I am assuming)

[Zapater]

Wow, that was an incredible sequence from Samoa. Pacific Island rugby is so good. I think they should have a joint team, like the West Indies in cricket. Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, etc. along with giving all of the All Blacks, Wallabies and everyone else a chance to switch. Would be a genuine force with the right structure and funding.

[Buzzo]

Samoa have butchered two opportunities to get the win.

[Zapater]

Samoa have butchered two opportunities to get the win.

Will always prevent them from winning games against top teams. What a second half though, wow. That's the last game you want going into a world cup.

Some of the way the Samoa forwards built phases reminded me of a much faster version of Springboks in the late 90s/early 2000s. Or what we were trying to do anyway, during those lean years.

[Buzzo]

Yep, great day for the Pacific Islands. Fiji getting an incredible win at Twickenham and that was an exciting, buccaneering performance from Samoa. Some of the carries and offloads on both games were immense.

[Irishnev]

We won but have been pretty **** in all three warm ups - it’s ****ing nuts that we’ve won 13 in a row, no 1 ranked side in the world, beat England by 19 points and I don’t fancy is to get out if the group

Power will always beat the home nations (England aside), we just dint have the genetics to match the really big sides

[bacon]

Pacific Island rugby is so good. I think they should have a joint team, like the West Indies in cricket. Fiji, Samoa, Tonga etc.

They already do - they’re known as the All Blacks

[bacon]

Yep, great day for the Pacific Islands. Fiji getting an incredible win at Twickenham and that was an exciting, buccaneering performance from Samoa. Some of the carries and offloads on both games were immense.

Fiji must be in with a serious chance of winning their group

[Cormack74]

They already do - they’re known as the All Blacks

[Cormack74]

This sounds like the sort of thing that could get terribly messy, but if it worked during his (Brian Moore's) time, then who knows if it might be the right catalyst for change now?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/08/28/england-lose-fiji-players-honesty-meetings-borthwick/

So England lost to Fiji for the first time in their history, on Saturday at Twickenham. As if that were not bad enough, they conceded another three tries and in a manner which displayed the sort of sloppiness you would not accept in a junior team, let alone an international outfit that has been together for about 10 weeks and had three previous preparatory games.

Post match, the England coach, Steve Borthwick, said that he had been in divided teams who had failed, but that this England side was not one of them. George Ford stressed that the England players were trying to bring the management’s vision into being on the pitch. He too made much of the unity within the squad. There remains one question, lurking below the surface, that neither Borthwick or Ford have mentioned, but which is apparent to outsiders: where is the honesty and accountability between players and between players and management and coaches? These are part of team sport, particularly in teams that have the solidity claimed.

I remember one of the “clear-the-air” sessions we had after losing the Grand Slam against Scotland in 1990. Savage does not even come near. There were two chairs facing back-to-back. One faced a wall and the other a semicircle where the squad sat. Each player took his turn to sit facing the wall and then squad members took it in turn to sit in the other chair and to say whatever they wanted to you, and you were not allowed to reply. It is hellishly uncomfortable, and more than a few home truths were spoken.

I hated the experience, particularly as most comments contained elements of truth, but when I left the session, I had cause to reflect on the comments. If you are a professional, and this has nothing to do with whether you are paid, you must be honest enough to accept criticism, even if it is not constructive when, deep down, you know you deserve it. You then have to resolve, and do everything you can, never to put yourself in a position where those criticisms can be made again.

England have the most experienced World Cup squad in history. Many of the players have been colleagues and friends for a long time. That closeness should allow them to make the most trenchant observations without the fear of falling out with each other. That is a feature of genuinely united squads; they are not afraid of saying what needs to be said.

I am not talking about berating a player for dropping the odd ball, especially when conditions are difficult, as they were last Saturday. I am talking about errors like the farcical defending for Vinaya Habosi’s try. Three defenders chose to defend on the short side, leaving nobody covering the open side of the breakdown. Habosi was the only player standing on the short side and he was allowed to simply pick up the ball from the back of the ruck and sprint past all three defenders.

Similarly, who decided not to jump at a Fijian line-out when England were eight points down, with only two minutes left on the clock? Which player then gave away a penalty, compounding error with error.

These are such basic mistakes that you would not accept them from most junior clubs. When it comes to the most experienced England team ever, they are inexcusable. Not only should defensive coach, Kevin Sinfield, be scathing about this, the players themselves should be castigating the culprits. I know that modern sport psychology stresses positivity, but there are times when hard words are appropriate.

England’s present plight is so bad that if they do not turn things round in France even Borthwick’s position will be on the line. If we could see incremental and solid steps towards a decent team this would not be an issue. When we appear to have England actually regressing under the current regime, those sorts of question must be asked.

I have said this many times before, but I strongly believe that the England management team should include either a southern hemisphere coach or one who has considerable experience of coaching in the southern hemisphere. A view coming from the traditionally strongest region of world rugby would not only give a different perspective; it might also challenge the status quo. The England Roses have been fortunate to secure the services of John Mitchell, and he might just get a knock on the door if England bomb in next two months.

What England now need is brutal honesty and maturity. It is time for fewer fist-pumps and high fives and more finger-pointing, even if it is figurative and done privately.

[bacon]

I have said this many times before, but I strongly believe that the England management team should include either a southern hemisphere coach or one who has considerable experience of coaching in the southern hemisphere. A view coming from the traditionally strongest region of world rugby would not only give a different perspective; it might also challenge the status quo. The England Roses have been fortunate to secure the services of John Mitchell, and he might just get a knock on the door if England bomb in next two months.

Eh ? Didn't you just bin Eddie Jones ? Now he's off destroying the Wobblys..