Andy Carroll - Best Striker in the World

[Fosterbloke]

I think they've ****ed up with this statement -

But we are fighting for our lives. If we were mid-table we would probably get on with it but we are fighting for our lives to retain our Premier League status and we owe it to our fans, we owe it to ourselves.

Or do you think a court would consider that if they were mid-table that any time and cost associated with a court case isn't worth the effort even if it was wrong?

[john316]

Be a complete farce if every decision teams don't like ends up in court. If they don't like the rules, then tell their players not to swing arms in the direction of fools like Chico Flores and avoid these incidents.

[Yozza]

What a FArce...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26081791

Andy Carroll: FA to reconsider West Ham striker's red card

The Football Association will reconsider its decision to uphold a three-match ban for West Ham striker Andy Carroll on Friday.

The club had threatened legal action against the FA after their initial attempt to overturn the ban was rejected by an appeals panel.

But the Premier League strugglers say they will now abide by any decision made by the FA Arbitral Tribunal.

In a statement West Ham said they had "no intention of taking the issue to the courts, but simply seek a fair determination of [our] rights under the FA's Rules."
The Hammers, who lie 18th in the table, also suggested the FA "did not apply the correct test" under its rules when making the original decision.

Carroll, 25, was dismissed after clashing with Swans defender Chico Flores at Upton Park last Saturday.

According to the FA, West Ham failed to prove to a three-man panel that referee Howard Webb had made "an obvious error" in dismissing the forward, whose arm hit Flores on the top of his head as he tried to untangle himself following an aerial challenge.

Flores went to ground clutching his face but West Ham felt he had overacted. Replays also showed contact looked unintentional.

[Red_Polo]

How exactly did replays show contact looked unintentional?

[ChesterDave]

Because they did not show it looked deliberate?

He'd just had a guy with his arm near enough round his neck climb all over his back and as the guy finally fell off his back meaning he could stand up straight again he hears the refs whistle and spins round to the direction of the noise. The only thing that would ever make me think it was deliberate was a confession from Carroll because nothing else in the video shows it for me.

[Red_Polo]

Because they did not show it looked deliberate?

Which is not the same thing at all.

[pondus]

This is a good example of what's wrong with football. No punishment for Carroll, and a three match ban for that simulating cunt Flores. No that would be fair.

[baitman]

the fact that the fa are going to review the decision because west ham threaten court action just stinks.

would they review something against us if we threatened legal action, like **** they would

[Kenneth]

the fact that the fa are going to review the decision because west ham threaten court action just stinks.

would they review something against us if we threatened legal action, like **** they would

I think they would if we had threatened to get an injunction at the high court over such an incident. But I can't see us doing that. West ham have because they are desperate.

[Red_Polo]

For me, the video replays DO show that Carroll intended to have a nibble at Flores. He deliberately shoves Flores in the back before he swings his arm around. On that basis, I don't think they should be able to successfully appeal the sending off.

Yes, Flores blatantly exaggerated and his antics aggravated Carroll in the first place. It IS wrong that the punishments given were not proportionate to the degree to which each player was at fault, but the suggestion that the ref has been fooled and made a different decision as a result is pure speculation. Carroll's breach of the rules on the other hand is quite clear to me.

The only reason this is an issue is the feeling that the ref may have been influenced by the exaggeration of Flores. Had it been a red for Carroll and yellow for Flores, I don't think we'd have been having this conversation.

[Red_Polo]

the fact that the fa are going to review the decision because west ham threaten court action just stinks.

would they review something against us if we threatened legal action, like **** they would

I expect so, it's part of the normal FA procedures, nothing out of the ordinary. It's just rare that clubs feel they need to take something that far.

[Red_Polo]

I expect so, it's part of the normal FA procedures, nothing out of the ordinary. It's just rare that clubs feel they need to take something that far.

See Rule K in FA Handbook

K. ARBITRATION
AGREEMENT TO ARBITRATION
1 (a) Subject to Rule K1(b), K1(c) and K1(d) below, any dispute or diff erence between
any two or more Participants (which shall include, for the purposes of this section
of the Rules, The Association) including but not limited to a dispute arising out of
or in connection with (including any question regarding the existence or validity
of):
(i) the Rules and regulations of The Association which are in force from time
to time;
(ii) the rules and regulations of an Affi liated Association or Competition
which are in force from time to time;
(iii) the statutes and regulations of FIFA and UEFA which are in force from
time to time; or
(iv) the Laws of the Game,
shall be referred to and fi nally resolved by arbitration under these Rules.
(b) No arbitration shall be commenced under these Rules unless and until the party or
parties wishing to commence an arbitration under these Rules (the “Claimant(s)”)
has exhausted all applicable rights of appeal pursuant to the Rules and regulations
of The Association.
(c) Rule K1(a) shall not apply to any dispute or diff erence which falls to be resolved
pursuant to any rules from time to time in force of any Affi liated Association or
Competition.134 RULES OF THE ASSOCIATION 2013-2014
(d) Rule K1(a) shall not operate to provide an appeal against the decision of a
Regulatory Commission or an Appeal Board under the Rules and shall operate
only as the forum and procedure for a challenge to the validity of such decision
under English law on the grounds of ultra vires (including error of law), irrationality
or procedural unfairness, with the Tribunal exercising a supervisory jurisdiction.
(e) The parties agree that the powers of the court under Sections 44, 45 and 69 of
the Arbitration Act 1996 are excluded and shall not apply to any arbitration
commenced under these Rules.
COMMENCEMENT OF ARBITRATION
2 (a) In order to commence an arbitration under these Rules the Claimant(s) shall serve
on the other party or parties to the dispute (the “Respondent(s)”) a written notice
of arbitration (the “Notice of Arbitration”) which shall set out:
(i) the names and addresses of the parties to the arbitration;
(ii) a brief statement describing the nature and circumstances of the dispute
and specifying the relief claimed;
(iii) any proposals in relation to the procedures for the arbitration including
any proposed variation of the Standard Directions set out under Rule K
4(b) below; and
(iv) the name and address of the Claimant(s)’s appointed arbitrator (between
them if more than one), who must have confi rmed to the Claimant(s)
his/her willingness and availability to accept the appointment.
(b) Within 14 days of service of the Notice of Arbitration, the Respondent(s) shall
each serve on the Claimant(s) and any other Respondent(s) a response to the
Notice of Arbitration (the “Response(s)”) which shall set out:
(i) an admission or denial of all or part of the claims set out in the Notice of
Arbitration;
(ii) a brief statement of the nature and circumstances of the Respondent(s)’s
denial, if any, and of the nature and circumstances of any counterclaim;
(iii) a response to any proposals made by the Claimant in the Notice of
Arbitration in relation to the procedures for the arbitration, together with
any proposals that the Respondent(s) may have; and
(iv) the name and address of the Respondent(s)’s appointment to act as
appointed arbitrator (between them if more than one), who must have
confi rmed to the Respondent(s) his/her willingness and availability to
accept the appointment.
THE TRIBUNAL
3 (a) In these Rules, “Tribunal” means the arbitrator or arbitrators appointed pursuant
to these Rules to determine the dispute. Subject to the appointment of a single
arbitrator under Rule K (3)(d) below, the Tribunal shall consist of three arbitrators.
(b) The Claimant(s) and the Respondent(s) shall within 14 days of service of the
Response(s) agree to the appointment of a third arbitrator who shall act as
chairman of the Tribunal.
(c) Where:
(i) in a dispute to which The Association is not a party, any party fails to
serve a Response under Rule K2(b) above within 14 days of service of the
Notice of Arbitration, the Chairman of the Football Regulatory Authority
(the “FRA”) shall appoint an arbitrator on behalf of the Respondent(s)
and shall appoint the chairman of the Tribunal. Such appointments shall
be made within 14 days after the date upon which the Response(s) RULES OF THE ASSOCIATION 2013-2014 135
should have been served. A Respondent shall have no right to oppose
such arbitrator(s) who shall be treated as if appointed (or agreed to in
respect of the appointment of the chairman of the Tribunal) by the
Respondent(s);
(ii) in a dispute to which The Association is a party, any party fails to serve
a Response under Rule K2(b) above within 14 days of service of the
Notice of Arbitration, the Claimant shall forward a copy of the Notice
of Arbitration to the President of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators
who shall appoint an arbitrator on behalf of the Respondent(s) and
shall appoint the chairman of the Tribunal. Such appointments shall be
made within 14 days after the date upon which the Response(s) should
have been served. A Respondent shall have no right to oppose such
arbitrator(s) who shall be treated as if appointed (or agreed to in respect
of the appointment of the chairman) by the Respondent(s); and
(iii) the parties cannot agree on the appointment of a third arbitrator who
shall act as chairman of the Tribunal under Rule K3(b) above:
(A) in a dispute in which The Association is not a party, the
Chairman of the FRA shall appoint the chairman of the Tribunal
as appropriate; or
(B) in a dispute in which The Association is a party, the President of
the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators shall appoint the chairman
of the Tribunal as appropriate.
(d) Notwithstanding the other provisions of this Rule K, the parties shall be at liberty
to agree the appointment of a single arbitrator in which case Rule K shall be
interpreted on the basis that the Tribunal comprises a single arbitrator who shall
undertake the duties of both the Tribunal and the chairman of the Tribunal.
(e) Each arbitrator must be, and remain, impartial and independent of all the parties
to the arbitration at all times. Each arbitrator must be resident in England.
(i) Any arbitrator may be challenged if circumstances exist that give rise
to justifi able doubts as to the arbitrator’s impartiality or independence.
A party who intends to challenge an arbitrator shall send to the other
party or parties a notice of challenge setting out the reasons for its
challenge within 14 days after notifi cation of the appointment of the
challenged arbitrator, or within 14 days from the date when the party
making the challenge is informed of the facts and circumstances upon
which the challenge is based if such date is subsequent to the receipt of
such notifi cation. A copy of the notice shall be sent at the same time to
the arbitrator who is challenged and the other members of the Tribunal
and The Association or the President of the Chartered Institute of
Arbitrators (in the event that either appointed the arbitrator challenged).
The notifi cation shall be in writing and shall state the reasons for the
challenge.
(ii) If the other party or parties do(es) not agree to the challenge or the
challenged arbitrator does not withdraw, the decision on the challenge
will be made, in a dispute in which The Association is not a party, by the
Chairman of the FRA, or in a dispute in which The Association is a party,
by the President of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators. If the challenge
is sustained, a replacement arbitrator shall be appointed pursuant to Rule
K3(f).
(f) In the event that the procedure for the appointment of any arbitrator fails, upon
the application by any party or parties, the Chairman of the FRA (in a dispute to 136 RULES OF THE ASSOCIATION 2013-2014
which The Association is not a party) or, the President of the Chartered Institute
of Arbitrators (in a dispute to which The Association is a party) shall make such
appointments as are necessary.
(g) If, for any reason, an arbitrator becomes unable to act or refuses to act, a
replacement shall be appointed in the same manner as the original appointment.
PROCEDURE
4 (a) The periods referred to in this Rule K 4 shall be calculated from the date on which
the chairman of the Tribunal has been appointed (referred to hereafter as the
Tribunal having been “Fully Constituted”).
(b) Subject to Rule K 4(c) below, the following Standard Directions shall apply to the
conduct of an arbitration under these Rules:
(i) within 21 days, the Claimant(s) shall serve its (their) Points of Claim;
(ii) within 42 days, the Respondent(s) shall serve its (their) Points of
Defence;
(iii) within 70 days, the parties shall exchange statements of the witnesses
they will rely upon;
(iv) within 98 days, the parties shall exchange and serve on the Tribunal their
written submissions; and
(v) within 119 days, the hearing shall take place.
(c) In the event that any or all of the parties wish to vary the Standard Directions, or
wish for any other direction to be given (such as in relation to disclosure or expert
evidence), then:
(i) the parties shall be free to agree to a variation of the Standard Directions,
or for other directions to be given; or
(ii) in the event that the parties cannot reach an agreement as to directions,
either party may at any time apply in writing to the Tribunal for the
directions to be varied, or for any other directions to be given.
(d) In varying the Standard Directions, or making other directions, the Tribunal shall
exercise its powers with a view to obtaining a fair resolution of the dispute without
unnecessary delay or expense, and shall make its directions as soon as reasonably
practicable.
(e) Unless otherwise agreed by the parties, the powers of the Tribunal under Rules K
4(c) and K 4(d) shall be carried out by the chairman of the Tribunal on his own.
(f) The parties shall be entitled to agree all other procedural and evidential matters,
failing which such matters shall be determined by the Tribunal. These matters
may include (but are not limited to):
(i) whether to apply strict rules of evidence or any other rules as to the
admissibility, relevance or weight of any material tendered by a party on
any matter of fact or expert opinion and to determine the true manner
and form in which material should be exchanged between the parties
and presented to the Tribunal; and
(ii) whether there should be a hearing or hearings before the Tribunal
or whether the dispute should be determined on the basis of written
submissions and documents alone.
(g) In the event of default by either party in respect of any matter under these Rules
or of any order or direction of the Tribunal (or of an Interim Tribunal under Rule
K8(c) below), the Tribunal shall have the power, upon application by any party or
of its own motion:RULES OF THE ASSOCIATION 2013-2014 137
(i) to debar that party from further participation, in whole or in part, in the
arbitration; and/or
(ii) proceed with the arbitration and deliver its award; and/or
(iii) make such other order as it sees fi t.
(h) Parties may be represented in an arbitration conducted under these Rules by a
Solicitor or Barrister or any other individual of their choice.
THE TRIBUNAL’S GENERAL POWERS
5 The Tribunal shall have power to:
(i) determine any question of law or fact arising in the course of the arbitration;
(ii) determine any question as to its own jurisdiction
(iii) order a stay or adjournment of the arbitral proceedings, provided that it is just and
equitable to do so;
(iv) summarily determine the claim, including having the power to grant summary
award or strike-out if it is just and equitable to do so;
(v) order the Claimant to provide security for costs of the arbitration;
(vi) allow either party upon such terms (as to costs and otherwise) as it shall think fi t
to amend any statement of case (including the Notice of Arbitration, Response,
Points of Claim and Points of Defence);
(vii) give directions in relation to the preservation, custody, detention, disclosure,
inspection or photographing of property owned by or in the possession of a party
to the arbitration;
(viii) give directions as to the preservation of evidence in the custody or control of a
party;
(ix) direct that a witness be examined on oath;
(x) require each party to give notice of identity of witnesses it intends to call;
(xi) require exchange of witness statements and any experts’ reports;
(xii) appoint one or more experts to report to it on specifi c issues;
(xiii) require a party to give any such expert any relevant information or to produce or
provide access to any relevant document or property;
(xiv) order that a transcript be taken of the proceedings;
(xv) extend or abbreviate any time limits provided under Rule K or by the directions
ordered by the Tribunal;
(xvi) require the parties to attend such procedural meetings as it deems appropriate to
identify or clarify the issues to be decided and the procedures to be adopted; and
(xvii) give such other lawful directions as it shall deem necessary to ensure the
expeditious, economical, just and fi nal determination of the dispute.
DUTIES OF THE PARTIES
6 The parties shall do all things necessary for the proper and expeditious conduct of the
arbitration and shall comply without delay with any directions of the Tribunal as to
procedural or evidential matters.
REMEDIES
7 The Tribunal shall have the power to:
(i) make a declaration as to any matter to be determined in the proceedings;
(ii) order the payment of a sum of money;
(iii) award simple or compound interest;
(iv) order a party to do or refrain from doing anything;138 RULES OF THE ASSOCIATION 2013-2014
(v) order specifi c performance of a contract (other than a contract relating to land);
and
(vi) order the rectifi cation, setting aside or cancellation of a deed or other document.
INTERIM APPLICATIONS
8 (a) Section 44 of The Arbitration Act 1996 shall not apply to the arbitrations
commenced under this Rule K.
(b) Following the Tribunal having been Fully Constituted, the parties shall make
any application for interim relief to the Tribunal, which shall determine any such
applications as it sees fi t with the Tribunal exercising the powers provided under
Rule K5 and Rule K7 above.
(c) In the event that a party wishes to seek interim relief prior to the Tribunal being
Fully Constituted, then that party shall be entitled to seek such relief in accordance
with the following procedure:
(i) The party seeking interim relief (the “Applicant”) shall serve its
application on the other party and fi le its application (the “Application”)
with Sports Resolutions (UK), contact details for which can be obtained
from the Disciplinary Department at The Association.
(ii) Within 2 business days (a “business day” being a day other than a
Saturday or a Sunday, on which banks generally are open in London for
the transaction of normal banking business) of being served with the
Application, Sports Resolutions (UK) shall appoint a single arbitrator, who
shall be a Barrister or Solicitor of seven or more years’ standing, to hear
the Application (the “Interim Tribunal”);
(iii) The Interim Tribunal shall decide all procedural and evidential matters
and shall give directions within 2 business days of its appointment. The
directions shall include without limitation:
(A) the extent to which there shall be oral or written evidence or
submissions;
(B) whether to have an oral hearing to determine the Application, or
whether to determine the Application on paper.
(iv) In determining the Application the Interim Tribunal shall exercise the
powers provided under Rule K5 and Rule K7 above.
(v) The Interim Tribunal’s award shall be in writing and shall be provided to
both parties and to the Tribunal.
(vi) Subject to Rule K 8(c)(vii) below, the Applicant shall be responsible for
the costs of the Interim Tribunal.
(vii) The Interim Tribunal shall have the power but not the obligation to:
(A) make such order against one or more of the parties as it
considers appropriate as to the costs of the Application, which
shall include:
(i) the fees and expenses of the Interim Tribunal and any
hearings;
(ii) the parties’ legal and other costs in the Application,
including administrative costs (if any); and,
(iii) the parties’ legal and other costs incurred in any cost
assessment or determination under Rule K8(c)(ix)
below.
(B) order that the costs of the Application be reserved to the
Tribunal.RULES OF THE ASSOCIATION 2013-2014 139
(viii) In appropriate cases the Interim Tribunal may award costs on an
indemnity basis.
(ix) The Interim Tribunal shall have the power to assess or determine the costs
of the Application (either summarily or upon detailed representations by
the parties) if requested to do so by either party.
PROVISIONAL AWARD
9 The Tribunal shall have the power to make provisional awards during the proceedings
including without limitation requiring a party to make an interim payment on account of
the claim or the costs of the arbitration. Any such provisional award shall be taken into
account when the fi nal award is made.
AWARD
10 (a) The Tribunal shall make its award (“the Award”) in writing and, unless all parties
otherwise agree in writing, shall state the reasons for its decision. The Award shall
be dated and signed by the Tribunal. Without prejudice to its obligations under
Rule K11, the Tribunal shall inform The Association of its Award and provide The
Association with a copy of any written decision.
(b) Subject to the provisions of sections 67 and 68 of the Arbitration Act 1996, the
Award shall be fi nal and binding on the parties from the date that it is made, who
shall be deemed to have waived irrevocably any right to appeal, review or recourse
to a court of law, arbitral body or any other body of any nature.
(c) Where there were three arbitrators and the Tribunal fails to agree on any issue, the
arbitrators shall decide that issue by a majority. Failing a majority decision on any
issue, the chairman of the Tribunal shall decide that issue.
CONFIDENTIALITY
11 (a) The parties shall preserve and respect the confi dentiality of the arbitration
proceedings, including the issues in the dispute and the evidence and arguments
presented by the parties.
(b) Subject to Rule K11(c) no disclosure shall be made to any third party of the
existence of the proceedings, the contents of any documents or other evidence
produced in the arbitration or any procedural decision of the Tribunal or its Award,
or any part of them save and to the extent that the disclosure may be required of a
party by legal duty, to protect or pursue a legal right or to enforce an award, except
with the prior written agreement of the parties to the arbitration.
(c) Unless otherwise agreed between the parties, where the Association is party to
an arbitration, the Award shall be made public, subject to appropriate redaction to
protect third party confi dentiality.
COSTS
12 (a) The Tribunal shall have the power but not the obligation to make such order
against one or more of the parties as it considers appropriate as to the costs of the
arbitration, which shall include:
(i) the fees and expenses of the arbitrators and any hearings;
(ii) the parties’ legal and other costs in the arbitration, including
administrative costs (if any); and,
(iii) the parties’ legal and other costs incurred in any cost assessment or
determination under Rule K12(c) below.
(b) In appropriate cases the Tribunal may award costs on an indemnity basis.140 RULES OF THE ASSOCIATION 2013-2014
(c) The Tribunal shall have the power to assess or determine the costs (either
summarily or upon detailed representations by the parties) if requested to do so
by either party.
SERVICE OF DOCUMENTS
13 (a) Any document served under this Rule K (including any Notice of Arbitration or
Response) will be deemed to be received by the relevant party on a particular day,
if it is received by that body or person (as appropriate) at or before 17:00 hours
on a business day. If it is received at any time thereafter, or if it is received during
a non-business day, it will be deemed to have been received the next following
business day (the “Date of Receipt”). Any time periods stipulated in this Rule K are
deemed to commence from the Date of Receipt.
(b) Any document served under this Rule K shall be deemed to be served:
(i) in person: On that day, if it is delivered on a business day before 17:00,
failing which it will be deemed to be served on the next following business
day after it is delivered;
(ii) by fi rst class post or by registered post: On the second business day after
the date of posting; or
(iii) by facsimile or email transmission: On that day, if it is transmitted on a
business day before 17:00, failing which it will be deemed to be served on
the next following business day after it is transmitted.
(c) Where The Association is not a party to the dispute, the Claimant(s) and
Respondent(s) must:
(i) send a copy of all statements of case (including the Notice of Arbitration,
Response, Points of Claim and Points of Defence), applications, evidence
and written submissions to The Association at the same time that such
documents are sent to the other party or parties to the dispute; and
(ii) provide The Association with a copy of any decision, order or award of
the Tribunal, or of any Interim Tribunal, upon receipt of the same.
GOVERNING LAW AND SEAT OF THE ARBITRATION
14 (a) These Rules and any arbitration pursuant to them shall be governed by
English law.
The Tribunal shall apply English law (both procedural and substantive) in
determining any dispute referred to arbitration under the Rules.
(b) The seat of any arbitration under this Rule K shall be England and Wales and,
unless otherwise agreed between the parties and The Association, the arbitration
shall be conducted in the English language.

http://www.thefa.com/~/media/files/thefaportal/governance-docs/rules-of-the-association/2013-14/fa-handbook-2013-14.ashx

[baitman]

thanks, thats cleared it all up then. i'll put the kettle on.

[Mattshark]

For me, the video replays DO show that Carroll intended to have a nibble at Flores. He deliberately shoves Flores in the back before he swings his arm around. On that basis, I don't think they should be able to successfully appeal the sending off.

Yes, Flores blatantly exaggerated and his antics aggravated Carroll in the first place. It IS wrong that the punishments given were not proportionate to the degree to which each player was at fault, but the suggestion that the ref has been fooled and made a different decision as a result is pure speculation. Carroll's breach of the rules on the other hand is quite clear to me.

The only reason this is an issue is the feeling that the ref may have been influenced by the exaggeration of Flores. Had it been a red for Carroll and yellow for Flores, I don't think we'd have been having this conversation.

[Sarb]

For me, the video replays DO show that Carroll intended to have a nibble at Flores. He deliberately shoves Flores in the back before he swings his arm around. On that basis, I don't think they should be able to successfully appeal the sending off.

Yes, Flores blatantly exaggerated and his antics aggravated Carroll in the first place. It IS wrong that the punishments given were not proportionate to the degree to which each player was at fault, but the suggestion that the ref has been fooled and made a different decision as a result is pure speculation. Carroll's breach of the rules on the other hand is quite clear to me.

The only reason this is an issue is the feeling that the ref may have been influenced by the exaggeration of Flores. Had it been a red for Carroll and yellow for Flores, I don't think we'd have been having this conversation.