Do you still have faith?

[CAD]

never a ****ing truer word spoken on this site

Cheers, Revo. Good to know I'm not alone

[bazza76]

If you buy into it that Rafa rotates to get the "perfect" side to beat the opposition on the day can you explain the lack of consistency. For example, we beat Reading's second-string playing 4-4-2 earlier in the season but went 4-3-3 against their first team when they still played the same way. We tonked Arsenal last season at our place 4-5-1 but this season decided to go 4-3-3 even thought they had the same central defensive pairing.

I'd also suggest that his idea of the ideal team to beat the oppo might be a bit wrong if it can be stopped by the tactical genius of Steve Bruce twice in one season.

ehh, are you taking the piss or totally missing the point?.
If you buy into it? there is nothing to buy into, it is fact. If you knew anything about Rafa you would know this.
o let me get this straight, you are saying about Readiing, even though they were using players with different strengths, or is this point totally lost on you? You are focusing too much on the formation and not enough on the personel, it is a mixture of both we should be looking at.
You also think because they have the same central defensive pairing, that that should be the catalyst for our formation remaining the same? don't mind the other 8 out field players
If ever there was a bogey manager to come to Anfield it is Bruce, he has gotten the results without ever looking like having control over the game, mixture of luck and being well prepared.

[bazza76]

personally i think he overdoes that and its a sign of his negativity. how about putting out as strong a side as he can and let them worry about us.

i also don't think he puts out the best side to beat a team necessarily. at times he'll put out a side that he thinks can win despite it not being our best side. he'll do that against some of the lesser lights in the league which, in my view, is a problem when

a) it backfires too often and
b) we're not taking points off the rest of the top 4 and so we really need to take them for sure against the others

Thats the thing Alun. If you want to see our best 11 out, regardless of who we are up against, then you may aswell ask for Rafa's head, because it aint going to happen.
Rafa is all about tactics, it is what his passion is, it is what excells his against all other managers when it comes to one off games, if Rafa was told to start his best 11 say by the new owners, that would make him leave quicker than anything else.
We are going to have to trust Rafa on this one, because there is no way we are going to start playing our best 11 based on ability game in game out and let the opposition worry about us.

[bigfooty]

ehh, are you taking the piss or totally missing the point?.
If you buy into it? there is nothing to buy into, it is fact. If you knew anything about Rafa you would know this.
o let me get this straight, you are saying about Readiing, even though they were using players with different strengths, or is this point totally lost on you? You are focusing too much on the formation and not enough on the personel, it is a mixture of both we should be looking at.
You also think because they have the same central defensive pairing, that that should be the catalyst for our formation remaining the same? don't mind the other 8 out field players
If ever there was a bogey manager to come to Anfield it is Bruce, he has gotten the results without ever looking like having control over the game, mixture of luck and being well prepared.

Arsenal have the same style last season as they did this season. They are a better side but they still play more or less exactly the same type of game.

As for Reading, neither we nor they were not at 100% when we played them in the Cup but they still played the same formation.

And if you look at the Birmingham and Wigan games you can quite clearly see that we fkd up in both. Yes they had limited ambition but then so do the majority of teams that come to Anfield. I mean FFS, we started with Kuyt and Voronin the first game and with Torres on his own the second. Hardly demonstrating a great deal of attacking intent.

[bazza76]

Arsenal have the same style last season as they did this season. They are a better side but they still play more or less exactly the same type of game.

As for Reading, neither we nor they were not at 100% when we played them in the Cup but they still played the same formation.

And if you look at the Birmingham and Wigan games you can quite clearly see that we fkd up in both. Yes they had limited ambition but then so do the majority of teams that come to Anfield. I mean FFS, we started with Kuyt and Voronin the first game and with Torres on his own the second. Hardly demonstrating a great deal of attacking intent.

As I said in an earlier post, if you are asking for Rafa to play who he feels is his best 11 players, regardless of who the opposition is, you are asking him to resign. Rafa is not the average manager, he is a heck of alot better than that.

[bigfooty]

Rafa is not the average manager, he is a heck of alot better than that.

Yet the common justification for his relative lack of success is that he hasn't had enough money, the same thing most average managers would argue is holding them back.

[ronan]

he is most certainly not going to change now
everything baz has said is pretty much spot on
if you can be arsed,this book is pretty good and offers a little insight into his mindset on coaching.

[bazza76]

Yet the common justification for his relative lack of success is that he hasn't had enough money, the same thing most average managers would argue is holding them back.

relative lack of success? you mean league success. Because Rafa has been a successfull manager as far as I am concerned, he is nt one of the most coveted managers in the game for nothing.
Lack of money in comparrison to the chavs and Man U would be more appropriate. especially when they have top class managers themselves.
Wenger, personally, I think he came into the English League when it was tactically naive and at its weakest, it made it easier for a manager of his intuition and skill to challenge Fergie. Wenger would not just arrive at say in todays Premier League and walk away with a league title in his first full season.
Argree with me or not, up to you, just my opinion though.

[bazza76]

he is most certainly not going to change now
everything baz has said is pretty much spot on
if you can be arsed,this book is pretty good and offers a little insight into his mindset on coaching.

Didn't read that, must take a look for it on Amazon

[dww]

It might not completely discount the Fergie analogy but by Joseph Maria and The new Est Jesus, it puts it into perspective!

What is it you want? You think Rafa should be able to get another 5 years bulding the squad?

You basic argument is that Rafa has not been funded and therefor we can't demand results, yet anyway? Is that right?

I thought we were bigger than Arsenal when Rafa arrived.

In what sense were we bigger than Arsenal? Had we won the league more recently, no. Did we finish above them in Houlliers last season, no. Do we have bigger support and greater historical support, yes. Did we have more money to spend, no.

So in the last seasons we have had greater success in Europe and finished ahead of Arsenal. This is an improvement. We have also seen an improvement at youth level and our reserves are now full of promising young players rather than failed first teamers. In all these areas since Rafa has arrived we have improved.

I think as such and considering we have and will continue to have a smaller budget than our immediate rivals I think the question is do you think that Rafa can improve this team and do so enough to maintain a season long challenge for the league. I would say his progress before this season with the club indicates it is possible.

I would personally give him until the end of the season to show that he hasn't started to go off course and that he understands what is needed. I would want to see us playing better football by the end of the season and to finish closer to the winners than we did last year. I would almost certainly give him another season after this one. I think another well backed summer window would be enough to judge whether we are likely to bridge the gap. I don't think it is a huge risk as Rafa has proved able to attract world class stars and to build the youth team so it seems unlikely that given another season he would put us in a considerably worse position, in my opinion he is likely to make us a better team.

[alunevans]

Thats the thing Alun. If you want to see our best 11 out, regardless of who we are up against, then you may aswell ask for Rafa's head, because it aint going to happen.
Rafa is all about tactics, it is what his passion is, it is what excells his against all other managers when it comes to one off games, if Rafa was told to start his best 11 say by the new owners, that would make him leave quicker than anything else.
We are going to have to trust Rafa on this one, because there is no way we are going to start playing our best 11 based on ability game in game out and let the opposition worry about us.

prob is bazza, it may come to that because i think that's what is wrong with us.

i think he overdoes all the who are we up against, what are their strengths, what is the next game we are playing, shall i pick a team against this lowly team to just edge it but end up failing to win as a result malarky.

what's wrong with picking a strong team and letting them worry about us.

as i say, if we don't pick up points against Chelsea Man U and Arsenal (and we don't) then the other games that people seem to think we can treat with a sense of "oh we can beat them even if weakened" are actually must win games and we can't drop points against them because we already drop our points against our main competitors.

if that means that the byproduct of wanting this (what i consider crucial) change is that rafa moves on then i guess he moves on.

i'd rather him stay and alter his methods in light of what he's learned these past 4 years though because as i've pointed out he's performed so well in other areas.

ultimately though, we've not even had a top 2 finish, and we won't get one this year either in my view. i feel that some of rafa's methods are a big enough part of the reason why.

i know others will disagree, but i can only say it how i see it, no matter how reluctantly. the way we set up at home against Wigan - as if we were away to Man U as TheGlove put it - is just the most recent example of the kind of thing i'm talking about.

[CAD]

In what sense were we bigger than Arsenal? Had we won the league more recently, no. Did we finish above them in Houlliers last season, no. Do we have bigger support and greater historical support, yes. Did we have more money to spend, no.

So in the last seasons we have had greater success in Europe and finished ahead of Arsenal. This is an improvement. We have also seen an improvement at youth level and our reserves are now full of promising young players rather than failed first teamers. In all these areas since Rafa has arrived we have improved.

I think as such and considering we have and will continue to have a smaller budget than our immediate rivals I think the question is do you think that Rafa can improve this team and do so enough to maintain a season long challenge for the league. I would say his progress before this season with the club indicates it is possible.

I would personally give him until the end of the season to show that he hasn't started to go off course and that he understands what is needed. I would want to see us playing better football by the end of the season and to finish closer to the winners than we did last year. I would almost certainly give him another season after this one. I think another well backed summer window would be enough to judge whether we are likely to bridge the gap. I don't think it is a huge risk as Rafa has proved able to attract world class stars and to build the youth team so it seems unlikely that given another season he would put us in a considerably worse position, in my opinion he is likely to make us a better team.

We were bigger than Arsenal in every economical term possible as far as I know. Turnover etc etc.

I would give Rafa til the end of the season as well. I harbour no ill will towards the man but I have been shocked by his teamselection and tactics too many times. I don't think he will win the PL simply because he will never drop heavy rotation. He will never get a squad strong enough to handle heavy rotation either. Not at LFC. Maybe with Chelski but not here. This is a fundamental thing he will never change. He is too old to change his ways. Everything so far suggests that imho.

"Another well backed summer"? In my world Rafa never had a well backed summer. Looking at the lost ground he had to make up for he has never had the backing needed. I realize that I contradict myself but I guess my point is that what he has managed to do with the money available in the PL, has not impressed me. When I look at Wenger I see a really gifted Manager in every sense of the word.

The Acadamy is the promise and hope that could bring Rafa over the edge if he manages to hang on long enough. I do however think we will benefit hugely from the Acadamy in the comming years regardless of Rafa being here or not.

Klinsmann, Mourinho, Hiddink. DIC, Kraft, L4/Morgan etc. All this doom and gloom that we will be set back years and years if so and so leaves. I feel confident that we will progress in the coming years. With or without G&H and/Or Rafa.

[Johnny]

We were bigger than Arsenal in every economical term possible as far as I know. Turnover etc etc.

I would give Rafa til the end of the season as well. I harbour no ill will towards the man but I have been shocked by his teamselection and tactics too many times. I don't think he will win the PL simply because he will never drop heavy rotation. He will never get a squad strong enough to handle heavy rotation either. Not at LFC. Maybe with Chelski but not here. This is a fundamental thing he will never change. He is too old to change his ways. Everything so far suggests that imho.

"Another well backed summer"? In my world Rafa never had a well backed summer. Looking at the lost ground he had to make up for he has never had the backing needed. I realize that I contradict myself but I guess my point is that what he has managed to do with the money available in the PL, has not impressed me. When I look at Wenger I see a really gifted Manager in every sense of the word.

The Acadamy is the promise and hope that could bring Rafa over the edge if he manages to hang on long enough. I do however think we will benefit hugely from the Acadamy in the comming years regardless of Rafa being here or not.

Klinsmann, Mourinho, Hiddink. DIC, Kraft, L4/Morgan etc. All this doom and gloom that we will be set back years and years if so and so leaves. I feel confident that we will progress in the coming years. With or without G&H and/Or Rafa.

Another post slating the man who despite having his hands tied in the transfer market has managed two CL finals in 3 yrs,winning one off them.

[CAD]

Another post slating the man who despite having his hands tied in the transfer market has managed two CL finals in 3 yrs,winning one off them.

That's negative in your world?

[Johnny]

That's negative in your world?

Off course.

I would give Rafa til the end of the season as well. I harbour no ill will towards the man but I have been shocked by his teamselection and tactics too many times. I don't think he will win the PL simply because he will never drop heavy rotation

With or without G&H and/Or Rafa.