Do you still have faith?

[Jesus]

It's just a shambles at the moment. We wallop Newcastle with our best performance of the season, and then he changes things again - system and personnel, and the inconsistency continues. The players must be up the wall with it. It's impossible to build any kind of rythmn, fluency and momentum if you're constantly tinkering from game to game.

Frustratingly, our best season under him was two seasons ago when we got 82 points using more or less a settled side and system for the majority of the season and he decided to rip it up and persist with his over elaborate methods.

[CAD]

Can we just look at the Ferguson point for a moment seeing as many people are quick to use it as a basis for being patient.

It may interest you to know that since the turn of the millenium no team that has won the league in Spain, England or Italy did so with a manager that had been at the club for more than 3 years prior to them winning their first title. To put it another way - all the managers that have won the league in those nations either joined the team 3 or less seasons prior to winning the league or were at the club for longer than that time and had won the title with the team before (Ferguson for example, who went 3 seasons without winning it before last season). If you include Germany then that number rises to one (Thomas Schaaf at Bremen), two if you include France (Denouiex at Nantes), but these leagues are not generally considered to be as robust at Spain, England and Italy in recent years.

Considering I'm talking about the modern era and not the football of 20 years ago when Ferguson was cutting his teeth at Utd I think this statistic is worth taking seriously as it strongly suggests that if a team is going to win the title under a new man the best chance it has is within 2-3 years of them taking charge. After that it seems the chance is remote, if any.

Pop goes the weasel.

The death of the inevitable "look at Fergie" argument.

Well done BF!

[dww]

Can we just look at the Ferguson point for a moment seeing as many people are quick to use it as a basis for being patient.

It may interest you to know that since the turn of the millenium no team that has won the league in Spain, England or Italy did so with a manager that had been at the club for more than 3 years prior to them winning their first title. To put it another way - all the managers that have won the league in those nations either joined the team 3 or less seasons prior to winning the league or were at the club for longer than that time and had won the title with the team before (Ferguson for example, who went 3 seasons without winning it before last season). If you include Germany then that number rises to one (Thomas Schaaf at Bremen), two if you include France (Denouiex at Nantes), but these leagues are not generally considered to be as robust at Spain, England and Italy in recent years.

Considering I'm talking about the modern era and not the football of 20 years ago when Ferguson was cutting his teeth at Utd I think this statistic is worth taking seriously as it strongly suggests that if a team is going to win the title under a new man the best chance it has is within 2-3 years of them taking charge. After that it seems the chance is remote, if any.

Pop goes the weasel.

The death of the inevitable "look at Fergie" argument.

Well done BF!

It is undoubtedly a good argument but I think that it doesn't completely discount the Fergie analogy for a number of reasons:

Firstly the fact is that on the continent managers rarely get 3 years so it's fairly unsurprising that no one who hasn't won it in three hasn't won it becase they probably haven't survived. I would suggest that the most defining factor of the sides which have won leagues is that they were the richest or one of the richest two teams in the leagues.

We are the 4th richest team in our league and so we have to look at what things we can emulate that have made teams successful in our league.

Basically when you get down to it this is where the nub of the argument is, if you take out finances the common themes are long running managers having time to develop a team and below that a system of youth teams which provide fill in players who understand the way the first team plays and playing fast paced counter attacking football (aligned with pace and passing - i.e. different to the long ball to a nippy striker model) with more than 4 goal threats in the team.

So you argue about whether we should have the 4 goal threats is common to both sides of it but in general people divide along the lines of feeling without the rapid counter attacking football as part of our style (which looks unlikely under Rafa) we won't win the league and those who feel with out stability we won't win the league.

The problem is we are always odds against being the 4th richest team in the division so it will always be a tight argument.

[tomasjj]

That's what this is imo, a constructed argument to suit an already established agenda.

[dww]

That's what this is imo, a constructed argument to suit an already established agenda.

[CAD]

It might not completely discount the Fergie analogy but by Joseph Maria and The new Est Jesus, it puts it into perspective!

What is it you want? You think Rafa should be able to get another 5 years bulding the squad?

You basic argument is that Rafa has not been funded and therefor we can't demand results, yet anyway? Is that right?

I thought we were bigger than Arsenal when Rafa arrived.

Can I just add that I blame Moores for the current situation more than anything else. He is the one who placed this club in stagnation for 20 years. The missing stadium is on his shoulders. He should have brought in investors many many years ago imho.

[Revo]

It might not completely discount the Fergie analogy but by Joseph Maria and The new Est Jesus, it puts it into perspective!

What is it you want? You think Rafa should be able to get another 5 years bulding the squad?

You basic argument is that Rafa has not been funded and therefor we can't demand results, yet anyway? Is that right?

I thought we were bigger than Arsenal when Rafa arrived.

Can I just add that I blame Moores for the current situation more than anything else. He is the one who placed this club in stagnation for 20 years. The missing stadium is on his shoulders. He should have brought in investors many many years ago imho.

never a ****ing truer word spoken on this site

[Howard_lfc]

Thanks Howard, respect to you also

It's a pity the way certain of the posters tend to rush to judgement and pigeon-hole those with opposing views. I take no joy from my views on Benitez but thirty years of supporting LFC doesn't rinse out too easily. I'll support them to the end, shouldn't stop the argument and debate raging though, huh?

Well said Frank.

If there weren't people with opposing views then there would be no debate. If you can put your position across clearly, and state your case, then there are some very good posters on here who will take the time and trouble to debate a topic seriously. After all - that's what we're here for.

Regarding Rafa: I said 'no'. If somebody asked me tomorrow would Rafa win us that elusive title then I'd have to say no. I would qualify that however by saying that if he were to change what I call his 'tactical arrogance' then I'd be tempted to vote 'yes'. As it stands though - it's a 'no' for me.

[Kopite_Colin]

Spot on Howard.

[MrsB]

I lost my faith over a year ago and though there have been times when I thought I might have been wrong there have also been underlying problems that have all too quickly come to the fore to cost us.

I desperately hope Rafa goes on to prove me wrong, I would gladly be made a fool of it meant he delivered #19. I just cannot see it happening.

Same here.

I lost my faith when we played Portsmouth at the beginning of this season. I really love Rafa and I think he's a tactical genius. At the same time I think that's exactly the problem because he asks too much of the players with constantly changing formations and tactics. Footballers are stupid (most of them anyway) and simply can't adapt as quick as Rafa wants them to. Look at the successful teams like ManU, Chelsea and Arsenal – they always play their same style. Wenger has been critisised for being stubborn and having no plan B if things don't work, but in fact he doesn't need a plan B because he's successful enough with what his players know inside out. We are inconsistent because our style of play is inconsistent.

[cobain]

****, I voted 'no' ... Didn't even read shaggy's post. I thought it was a question "do you still have faith in our #19 this season" ...

Oh well ...

I DO have faith in Rafa, but if we don't win anything this season, I'll be pretty pissed off.

[alunevans]

Well said Frank.

If there weren't people with opposing views then there would be no debate. If you can put your position across clearly, and state your case, then there are some very good posters on here who will take the time and trouble to debate a topic seriously. After all - that's what we're here for.

Regarding Rafa: I said 'no'. If somebody asked me tomorrow would Rafa win us that elusive title then I'd have to say no. I would qualify that however by saying that if he were to change what I call his 'tactical arrogance' then I'd be tempted to vote 'yes'. As it stands though - it's a 'no' for me.

Spot on.

There are so many great things he's done for the club. I like his purchases, I like the scouting system, I like his thoroughness, I like the way he has addressed the youth system and brought in quality players.

But I don't like his team selection and often don't like the way he sets the team up.

Everything I like about him is akin to the sort of job that an outstanding Director of Football might do.

All my doubts are about his negativity as a manager, and about some of his baffling decisions and team selections. But that's a big doubt.

Like you, if he sorted that out I'd have faith again.

[CAD]

I lost my faith when we played Portsmouth at the beginning of this season.

You and me both, mate

I even made that "Thanks for the CL...now **** off" post after that match which, in hindsight could have been written in a bit more intelligent and sober langauge.

Everything there's wrong with Rafa and his approach is visible in regard to the Pompey game. He comes with a fresh 6-0 win. There has been an international brake. Instead of riding the momentum he opts to change 5 players (FIVE!!) and field Momo and Alonso together on the midfield!! And Pompey were there for the taking. They were pissing their pants when we started the game. I knew it was more of the same bull****e when I saw that lineup. Gerrard and Torres on the bench. Thinking about it is getting me steamed up again!

[Frank Leroux]

Spot on.

There are so many great things he's done for the club. I like his purchases, I like the scouting system, I like his thoroughness, I like the way he has addressed the youth system and brought in quality players.

But I don't like his team selection and often don't like the way he sets the team up.

Everything I like about him is akin to the sort of job that an outstanding Director of Football might do.

All my doubts are about his negativity as a manager, and about some of his baffling decisions and team selections. But that's a big doubt.

Like you, if he sorted that out I'd have faith again.

Absolutely, me too.

I admire his belief in his methods, I just don't think it'll ever win a PL.

And I don't believe the top managers change their footballing philosophy either.

[Jesus]

I think he's ran out of ideas, personally, and whatever vision he had has been lost in amongst his obsessive tinkering.

Four seasons down the line and we're still debating over what our best system is. Not good enough.