Rafa Benitez tells Xabi Alonso: Step things up

[Dhav]

Impossible to say.

I think if we had a better manager we'd be ten points better off.

But again it's impossible to say, isn't it?

Do you think that working under current circumstances and pressures, a better manager would have gotten 10 points more? Because I'd like to point out how Mourinho and Jol struggled when they had their boards conspiring against them

[Johnny]

i'm just a huge fan of PC and more than that, i'm emphatically certain that he IS just miles better than DK, so it genuinely baffles me to the point of metaphorical high-pitched disbelief that Kuyt gets picked ahead of him )...

[Craig_H]

Only if the one that scores a lot of goals and is actually good don't put in a good enough work on a daily basis(bad attitude) because that would hurt the morale of the rest of the team long term.

I cant think of a polite way of saying this, so i'll just say 'with all due respect' and come out with it...

I've never seen anyone on any forum who comes across as deluded and clueless as you are, with that post...

"If someone scores goals and wins us games, without working his nuts off, it damages the morale of the team...whereas if someone runs around for 90 mins, it keeps morale up, even if he's rubbish and single-handedly minimizes our chances of scoring and winning games..."

Dear lord...

[Craig_H]

Impossible to say.

I think if we had a better manager we'd be ten points better off.

But again it's impossible to say, isn't it?

I think the latter argument you mention is very easy to say, and rather true too. Although, i'd tweak it to "If we had a more flexible and less stubborn manager..."

[Craig_H]

How do you know the morale of the team is not suffering because Rafa chooses Kuyt over Crouch.

Morale is good when you're playing well and winning, and it's ****e when you're playing rubbish and not winning.

[AFII]

They were/are both gobby little ****s who go too far and have received LOADS of abuse off us lot for being like that...

Well, Carra is the same, he moans a lot on the pitch just because he is a 100% winner.

If you look at some Man U forums then you will probably see that Carra gets a lot of stick because of his according to them bad attitude.

[Jazzmaster]

If the manager allows a player with a bad attitude to play instead of one that work his socks off every day then he will very soon lose the faith of the rest of the team.

That would send out the completely wrong signals. Rafa should have sold Crouch last summer and I don't know why he didn't do it, maybe Crouch refused to leave, who knows? He wouldn't have been the first player doing that. Finnan and Cisse are two examples.

But he never seems to have a bad attitude on the pitch which is where it counts. I dont think the rest of the players would give a **** about anyones attitude once they are producing the goods where it counts.

I think rafa has a personal issue with crouch (whatever that may be) and is drawn more towards kuyt because of the dutchmans unquestionable work ethic. However such personal likes or dislikes should never get in the way ona professional level.

[Johnny]

If you look at some Man U forums then you will probably see that Carra gets a lot of stick because of his according to them bad attitude.

I really can`t see any football fan agreeing with that mate.

[Craig_H]

Certainly not. I've criticised Rafa before on here, I'm far from being a member of RCDNWB and I'm rapidly losing patience with him. Believe it or not, I'm actually edging closer to sharing your view that only Mourinho could turn this mess around and we might be better off bringing him in this summer

I'm just trying to point out that this issue is not as clear cut as you and certain others on here would paint it.

It's not 'clear cut' mate, i know that.

But ultimately, you have to dust off the 'grey areas' and fall on one side of the fence - either the manager takes ultimate responsibility or he doesnt.


I think we're underachieving and failing (compared to what we SHOULD be capable of) and whilst there ARE external factors, the least you'd expect is for the manager to get it right with the factors he CAN control. Rafa isnt

[Dhav]

But Crouch has NEVER been the 'run around everywhere non-stop' type, he wasnt doing that last season when he played regularly. So i dont see what points to attitude problems. Sometimes Crouch is fairly ineffective, you rightly point to Pompey away as an example. (I have my own issues about that game, with regards to our best two players not starting, but that's another thread).

I was there that day and i wasnt impressed with Crouch's performance, but that's just him, he isnt of the world class quality of player that produce virtually every week, i wouldnt claim he was.

He had an off day, nothing more, nothing less. That doesnt equate to attitude problems though, otherwise 90% of our squad could be accused of having attitude problems at some point this season.

So while i respect your view on this, i have to disagree with the pompey game as an example of an attitude problem. He was just his usual self, and had a poor performance. Nowt to do with attitude IMO.

(BTW, if there's an aggressive tone in my posts, i apologise, i'm not intending to be aggressive or anything, i'm just a huge fan of PC and more than that, i'm emphatically certain that he IS just miles better than DK, so it genuinely baffles me to the point of metaphorical high-pitched disbelief that Kuyt gets picked ahead of him )...

Fair enough, although I'd point out that his Pompey performance was far from being an isolated poor performance, just the final straw.

No aggressive undertones detected

I'd agree that Crouch is miles better than Kuyt on a technical level but that doesn't necessarily mean, to my way of thinking anyway, that when both are on form that Crouch offers more to the team than Kuyt does. In this regard I'd highlight Kuyt's performance v Newcastle where he seemed to be the perfect foil for Torres.

[Craig_H]

It was the right thing to do at Reading because Rafa would probably been sacked if we lost against Marseille and it would also probably meant no new central defender and no Mascherano.

I know what I would choose if the choices were three points against Reading or three points against Marseille when you consider the above options.

Erm...we won 11 games in a row last season...

Why is winning at Reading, then at Marseille apparently 'impossible' to do?

[Craig_H]

Do you think that working under current circumstances and pressures, a better manager would have gotten 10 points more? Because I'd like to point out how Mourinho and Jol struggled when they had their boards conspiring against them

Mourinho may have struggled, but he still left Chelsea in a position whereby their title challenge didnt fade away in January...

Jol...is just not a top class manager, regardless of board issues.

[AFII]

But he never seems to have a bad attitude on the pitch which is where it counts. I dont think the rest of the players would give a **** about anyones attitude once they are producing the goods where it counts.

I think rafa has a personal issue with crouch (whatever that may be) and is drawn more towards kuyt because of the dutchmans unquestionable work ethic. However such personal likes or dislikes should never get in the way ona professional level.

Rafa have never in his career at the top favourised a player so why would he do that with Kuyt? Rafa is ruthless when it comes down that.

[Craig_H]

Well, Carra is the same, he moans a lot on the pitch just because he is a 100% winner.

If you look at some Man U forums then you will probably see that Carra gets a lot of stick because of his according to them bad attitude.

Carra isnt a dirty fecker who screams abuse in the face of refs on a regular basis...or maims a fellow pro...

Poor example.

[Dhav]

I cant think of a polite way of saying this, so i'll just say 'with all due respect' and come out with it...

I've never seen anyone on any forum who comes across as deluded and clueless as you are, with that post...

"If someone scores goals and wins us games, without working his nuts off, it damages the morale of the team...whereas if someone runs around for 90 mins, it keeps morale up, even if he's rubbish and single-handedly minimizes our chances of scoring and winning games..."

Dear lord...

You're putting words into his mouth there Syd.

It's not 'clear cut' mate, i know that.

But ultimately, you have to dust off the 'grey areas' and fall on one side of the fence - either the manager takes ultimate responsibility or he doesnt.


I think we're underachieving and failing (compared to what we SHOULD be capable of) and whilst there ARE external factors, the least you'd expect is for the manager to get it right with the factors he CAN control. Rafa isnt

I'm happy to take a seat on the fence at present on the whole thing. I'll reserve full and final judgment until the end of the season.