David Moores letter to The Times

[Craig_H]

IF the club was sold for less than the RBS debt value then the current owners would be liable for the difference

What the owners have done is paid off the RBS debt and put it on our books / holding companies books as a debt to them

Obviously they will want all debts to them cleared in addition to RBS's

I dont think they have a prayer frankly and if anything the best they will get is clearing the RBS debt (just)

I dont know the true debt value today (RBS + debt to owners / holding company etc..)

I dont understand this Lec - if they have paid off the RBS debt, why are they still doing extension deals with RBS?

[Lecter]

How come the debt amount has doubled since they bought the club? Just because of interest?

They bought the club for £174 million plus £45 million debt

They bundled those amounts alongwith short term loan interest costs that covered those amounts for 12 months to a loan from RBS to which they added some £50 million working capital and plus about £60 million for start up stadium costs

Each refinancing will have cost about 10% of the total loan amount in banks fees (all no doubt capitalised to the balance)

[Lecter]

I dont understand this Lec - if they have paid off the RBS debt, why are they still doing extension deals with RBS?

Because the original debt (to RBS) was almost £400 million, the last time I saw someone comment on the current debt (to RBS) it was circa £237 million

Now whether the owners have stumped that up personally through Kop holdings or borrowed elsewhere I dont know

The debt to RBS is the only thing that matters imo, no one is going to pay off the debts owed to them

[Craig_H]

Because the original debt (to RBS) was almost £400 million, the last time I saw someone comment on the current debt (to RBS) it was circa £237 million

Now whether the owners have stumped that up personally through Kop holdings or borrowed elsewhere I dont know

The debt to RBS is the only thing that matters imo, no one is going to pay off the debts owed to them

If they only needed £237m to fund the purchase of the club, why did they originally need to borrow nearly £400m from RBS?

[barnes10]

costs of doing the deal & refinancing. they've 'injected funds' for signing the likes of torres, masher, babel etc etc. apparently there's 55mill there for the stadium isnt there.

all this will be rolled into the debt that the club owes the holding company

[Lecter]

If they only needed £237m to fund the purchase of the club, why did they originally need to borrow nearly £400m from RBS?

Club bought for £174 million, plus debt = £219 million

This they borrowed on a short term loan (which was replaced by the RBS loan)

They added the interest costs set up fees etc.. from this short term loan to their initial RBS loan, they also borrowed further funds for working capital - £50 million I think (some which went on Torres) and about £60 million for stadium start up costs. The fees involved in setting up this loan they capitalised to the balance and each renewal they have capitalised the fees to the balance

[Craig_H]

Christ, it's really added up hasnt it

[BillobShaisley]

First he says that he took Gilletts word for Hicks as a good man for LFC, then he says that he did all the research that he could have done.

Why not just admit that he does not know what google is and that trusting bankers with an agenda was a stupid stupid thing to do...
edit:
My bad, he does not use computers it seems..

What the **** is wrong with you guys? ADHD or something?

PWC did the sellers DD.

[BillobShaisley]

I'm sorry but Moores has just made it far worse for himself, he hasn't accepted any responsibility, he used the Thai takeover of Man City as an example of how prudent they had been well look what has happened to Man City - they have really struggled haven't they, at least the Thai ownership was settled quickly when they decided to sell.
He also alludes to the fact that Dubai isn't as wealthy as it was so weren't they clever by turning down DIC

He's proud of the fact he hasn't used a computer in his life, claims football was unfashionable prior to 1996 (what a ****ing joke) and bangs on about Rick Parry wanting to do things 'the right way'

I refuse to believe, absolutely refuse to believe that they couldn't have found out about H&G leveraged business models previously.

Comparing himself to Jack Walker as well, Jack Walker bought Blackburn the title (with no little help from King Kenny) you David Moores with your greed and sheer incompitence have bought us fans years of humiliation and despair

Well why are you still here then? Clearly 'The Liverpool Way' means nothing to you?

[squaddie]

We will get through this..... Whether it be this month or 3 years down the line..... Just gonna have to grit our teeth and bare it.... Got to admit though not looking forward to coming years of being a Liverpool fan.

[Slinky Skills]

I agree. He f****ed up. He knows he f****ed up. But he's right about the importance of context. You have to remember that at the time, a lot of fans were howling for him and Parry to go to be replaced by the fantasy big investor. The same fans seem to forget that now. They were delighted with Hicks and Gillett - I remember the backslapping online when the deal was announced. Didnt see too many people on here doing the same easy Google searches they're talking about now.

To be fair, a few people did. Some people warned that chasing the money was dangerous - that while Moores was inept in many ways, he were at least always sure he had the club's best interests at heart. If people called him an idiot, at least he was our idiot. But too many people (Moores included) thought we needed our own Abramovich.

The club was pretty well run in the 90s by the standards then. We spent a lot of money by comparison with our rivals and were regularly making record transfers in the market (most expensive defenders ever, strikers, etc). That's what you want from a chairman. His big mistakes were in the choice of manager and in failing to plan ahead and start work on a new stadium at that time. Once the TV money became huge, Champions League money came in (which, again, remember we didnt qualify for for years) and the big investors arrived, Moores couldnt spend the money our rivals were spending. That was why the search for investment started. And it sounds like it dragged on so long, and the calls got so loud, that eventually they just jumped on the best looking option at the time.

Having spent time in Boston, I agree its tragic Kraft said no.

And even more tragic that if the new UEFA rules on spending come in, this will all have been in vain anyway as there will be no more Abramovichs.

While Moores and Parry have a lot of blame to take, there's enough to go round for everyone, including the fans. And Abramovich. It was his distortion of the market that I think made a sale inevitable.

But please, lets not make the same mistake again. There's unlikely to be a fairy godmother waiting for us with a pile of gold. Id rather go back to being a reasonably wealthy club run by die hard fans who cant spend quite as much as rivals who will eventually implode under all the debt than spend the next few years being kicked around as every rich investor group that poses as a benefactor strips us of what they can.

So you've only posted 22 times since the Yanks tookover then?

[PTP]

What the **** is wrong with you guys? ADHD or something?

PWC did the sellers DD.

PKF acted as the independant financial advisors for Liverpool Football CLub on th DD

[BillobShaisley]

That's awafully naive Fredo. He engaged in the sale of a massive sporting institution, once for which he claims only to have had the best interests of at heart. He then ADMITS that he recieved an offer from Gillet who told him that Hicks was coming in with him as a result of which he FAILED to properly vet Hicks.

This wasnt someone selling their car or a 3 piece suite, it was a multi million pound sale of one the world's foremost football clubs. He sold it without properly understanding who he was selling it too.

Whilst it may be argued that he had no obligation to the club post sale, he utter neutralises that argument when he gives us all his "cant believe how bad they are please sell now" bollocks. The man clearly only wanted the money and that was that.

There can be no other conclusion drawn. He should shut the **** up because he inane, pathetic excuses are nothing more than a ridiculous charade desigend only to get him back on side with the fan base and to allow back into his padded executive seat with use of the complimentary bar.

He's a ****ing disgrace.

Did you actualy read the letter or only Craig_H's responses to it?

You are all a ****ing disgrace and make me ashamed that this is the current state of LFC support.

What was the right choice for DM to have made? Sell to DIC, hold out longer, maintain ownership? What.

All these google champions failed to find the crucial information which would have identified the pair as a risk in the weeks and months after the sale.

Can you imagine if he'd been writting this letter now and had done as you'd all suggested?

"I hadn't heard of Hicks and allthought PWC, Rothschilds and Gillett all vouched for him, I had a look on google and couldn't find anything so I pulled out of the deal"

[red g]

Did you actualy read the letter or only Craig_H's responses to it?

You are all a ****ing disgrace and make me ashamed that this is the current state of LFC support.

What was the right choice for DM to have made? Sell to DIC, hold out longer, maintain ownership? What.

All these google champions failed to find the crucial information which would have identified the pair as a risk in the weeks and months after the sale.

Why should i support David Moores when he has overseen the steady decline of our club ever since he took over.....then topped it off by selling to the yanks

as for the google champions ****e......we didnt need to, we werent selling the club we trusted DAvid Moores to sell it to fit and right owners after all he had spent millions of the clubs money finding the right owners.

We are one of the biggest names in World football........how ****ing hard could it be? besides lets face it if you were dealing with Moores i reckon you could spin out any deals and make more money he hardly seems the sharpest tool in the box.

[BillobShaisley]

do you? do you really?

fact is that we would not be in this situation of David Moores did not put us in this situation........Bollocks to everyone who surrounds him, he signed the club over nobody else, he had overseen our steady decline, he was stupid enough to bring in Parry.

No we'd still have Djimi Traore and Milan Baros. Torres would be at Barca and we'd still be dreaming of No19 and No5, and we'd probably still have Parry as chief executive!