Southampton vs Liverpool - Premier League (20/21 - Game 17)

[Mark79]

We played the first team in a dead rubber recently. we have options in attack on the bench but rigidly stick to our regular front 3. If fatigue is an issue we certainly aren't mitigating it.

Are you talking about the Midtjyland game?

[Kenneth]

Yes, that game. Hendo, Mane, Robbo, Firmino all traveled and played also.

[wiw]

The way we play has got very lazy. Once upon a time our creativeness went through the midfield, with clever passing and clever runs. Over time though our central midfielders have turned - probably in response to teams packing the central area - into hod carriers moving the ball from side to side (for the fullbacks to do the creating) or launching the ball long from deep positions. As a result, the strikers have become used to being customers of long balls and balls from outwide and tend not to play together. The Ox and Naby were bought to change that, because they are midfielders that attack the penalty area - Shaq ditto. And Thiago is also an attempt to change that. Change is needed because teams are packing the wings too, but at the moment fitness issues involving all three of them mean we are stuck playing a type of football that has been found out. Maybe we need to try Trent in midfield and see if his booming shooting and general box-to-box approach might cause the sort of havoc needed to unsettling teams with 10 men buses.

Good post

[Mark79]

Yes, that game. Hendo, Mane, Robbo, Firmino all traveled and played also.

Hendo 30 mins, Mane 3 mins, Robbo 30 mins (replacing injured player) Firmino 20 mins. Fabinho subbed off at half time too.

Salah and Trent the only 2 of the regular starting XI to play the full game.

I understand some would have preferred the first teamers rested completely, but that’s still a heavily rotated team with obvious attempts at mitigating the players playing time.

[Exiled_red]

The way we play has got very lazy. Once upon a time our creativeness went through the midfield, with clever passing and clever runs. Over time though our central midfielders have turned - probably in response to teams packing the central area - into hod carriers moving the ball from side to side (for the fullbacks to do the creating) or launching the ball long from deep positions. As a result, the strikers have become used to being customers of long balls and balls from outwide and tend not to play together. The Ox and Naby were bought to change that, because they are midfielders that attack the penalty area - Shaq ditto. And Thiago is also an attempt to change that. Change is needed because teams are packing the wings too, but at the moment fitness issues involving all three of them mean we are stuck playing a type of football that has been found out. Maybe we need to try Trent in midfield and see if his booming shooting and general box-to-box approach might cause the sort of havoc needed to unsettling teams with 10 men buses.

The running off the ball has largely gone, probably because teams are playing so deep there is no space in behind. Teams are letting us have possession in front of their defence and denying us space through the middle meaning that we can't use the pace and trickery of Mane and Salah, and hence the lack of goals and chances for them. Teams are also happy for us to pack the middle and let us sling crosses in from deep because most sides have an aerial advantage over our forwards and would probably back themselves to clear the danger playing the numbers game.

The solution would seem to be get players into midfield who are capable of creating space or picking a pass in tight areas: Thiago Shaqiri, Ox, Keita etc. So while I think that the idea behind the tactics last night was probably right, it was just poorly executed perhaps due to Ox, Thiago (and later Shaqiri) not having played much, or Thiago not being used to the league. I guess the hope was with Henderson behind them at CB it would be like having him at the back of the midfield with the more creative players in front of him. It just didn't really work out. Henderson needs to be in midfield, he did OK at CB but really didn't look comfortable there and the team suffered.

If we are going with these more creative guys in midfield we need them to produce the passes or take on shots from distance or just give us other options, the other option is to try and play with a more traditional centre forward who can punish teams who sit deep but I don't really like that option.

We are still at the top of the league but Man City and Man Utd could go ahead of us if they get results in their games in hand, and see us dragged back into that pack of 8 or so sides who are up there. Our form at the moment is shocking, we have only picked up 13 points from our last 8 games (3 of which have been against sides in the bottom 4), we have to halt this awful run of form now, because if it goes on much longer we will be making things very difficult for ourselves.

[Scratch]

Hendo 30 mins, Mane 3 mins, Robbo 30 mins (replacing injured player) Firmino 20 mins. Fabinho subbed off at half time too.

Salah and Trent the only 2 of the regular starting XI to play the full game.

I understand some would have preferred the first teamers rested completely, but that’s still a heavily rotated team with obvious attempts at mitigating the players playing time.

Salah and Jota both needed match time, Salah was just back from Covid and Jota was a regular sub. It was just unfortunate that Jota took a knock.

[Norbs]

Maybe we need to try Trent in midfield and see if his booming shooting and general box-to-box approach might cause the sort of havoc needed to unsettling teams with 10 men buses.

Funnily enough, I said the same after the Newcastle game

Our best strikers of the ball are playing at full back and centre back so are never going to get a chance to shoot. Our biggest threat at corners is injured and that leaves us a lot less dangerous

[Kenneth]

Hendo 30 mins, Mane 3 mins, Robbo 30 mins (replacing injured player) Firmino 20 mins. Fabinho subbed off at half time too.

Salah and Trent the only 2 of the regular starting XI to play the full game.

I understand some would have preferred the first teamers rested completely, but that’s still a heavily rotated team with obvious attempts at mitigating the players playing time.

We took players to Denmark and played them in a competitive game when we didn't need to, and we're speculating that fatigue is harming our prospects, particularly among the front three. By insisting they play nearly every game, even during questionable form, and starving Taki and Shaq, in particular, of game time, we aren't managing fatigue as we could, IF it is an issue.

[danperkins]

The running off the ball has largely gone, probably because teams are playing so deep there is no space in behind. Teams are letting us have possession in front of their defence and denying us space through the middle meaning that we can't use the pace and trickery of Mane and Salah, and hence the lack of goals and chances for them. Teams are also happy for us to pack the middle and let us sling crosses in from deep because most sides have an aerial advantage over our forwards and would probably back themselves to clear the danger playing the numbers game.

The solution would seem to be get players into midfield who are capable of creating space or picking a pass in tight areas: Thiago Shaqiri, Ox, Keita etc. So while I think that the idea behind the tactics last night was probably right, it was just poorly executed perhaps due to Ox, Thiago (and later Shaqiri) not having played much, or Thiago not being used to the league. I guess the hope was with Henderson behind them at CB it would be like having him at the back of the midfield with the more creative players in front of him. It just didn't really work out. Henderson needs to be in midfield, he did OK at CB but really didn't look comfortable there and the team suffered.

If we are going with these more creative guys in midfield we need them to produce the passes or take on shots from distance or just give us other options, the other option is to try and play with a more traditional centre forward who can punish teams who sit deep but I don't really like that option.

We are still at the top of the league but Man City and Man Utd could go ahead of us if they get results in their games in hand, and see us dragged back into that pack of 8 or so sides who are up there. Our form at the moment is shocking, we have only picked up 13 points from our last 8 games (3 of which have been against sides in the bottom 4), we have to halt this awful run of form now, because if it goes on much longer we will be making things very difficult for ourselves.

[Mark79]

We took players to Denmark and played them in a competitive game when we didn't need to, and we're speculating that fatigue is harming our prospects, particularly among the front three. By insisting they play nearly every game, even during questionable form, and starving Taki and Shaq, in particular, of game time, we aren't managing fatigue as we could, IF it is an issue.

Shaq has been unavailable for most of the season? Injuries across the board are clearly affecting our ability to rotate without compromising too far on quality.

Fair enough on Taki, you’d think he could have featured more than he has so far. But in terms of effectively rotating the front 3 it’s Jota’s injury that’s impacted that the most.

And yes I know, he got injured in that Midtjyland game, but he was playing because we didn’t start 2 of the regular front 3.

[vlahka]

Just so we can rage internally some more. And maybe externally.

[calvoboy]

I don't think (1) should ever be given as a handball, but we've seen them given. Same goes for the Mane penalty shout - it's one where VAR wouldn't overturn the ref's decision either way.

The other fouls are pretty blatant, and when you look at the "foul" for the free-kick they scored from it's annoying they weren't given. Not really game-changing though. I'm still more concerned by our performance than the ref's.

[Kenneth]

Shaq has been unavailable for most of the season? Injuries across the board are clearly affecting our ability to rotate without compromising too far on quality.

Fair enough on Taki, you’d think he could have featured more than he has so far. But in terms of effectively rotating the front 3 it’s Jota’s injury that’s impacted that the most.

And yes I know, he got injured in that Midtjyland game, but he was playing because we didn’t start 2 of the regular front 3.

It becomes an question of whether to weaken the team by fatiguing certain players, or by substituting certain players with inferior ones occasionally. Personally, the latter seems more sustainable, and the former isn't going well.

[Buzzo]

We've also got loads of player who are looking to play there way into form from injury or from not having had any game time and get few minutes to do so. Minamino is a prime example, played his best 90 for us by far against Palace, and then loses all momentum by not getting a kick for the next three games.

It is a balancing act, but we do seem to be solely reliant on Mane, Salah and Firmino, who have delivired for 3 years, but now we do need trusted, or to trust, the back up.

[Shaggy]

Neither were penalties imo but it's ****ing infuriating all the same

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