Rafa Watch

[Dhav]

What a cunt Pepe must be....

Clearly not, but if he did say that then he got it wrong IMO and time has borne that out.

Ok, this is a bit of a devil's advocate post, but to take up Dave's point, I think there was some player dissatisfaction and this partly precipitated Rafa's departure. However, IMO you don't get rid of the manager to suit the players; that's what Chelsea do. You get rid of the players and start from scratch. Ferguson has re-built his team several times and has been known to dispose of high profile players, Wenger has done so and sold top players for maximum profit, Shanks got rid of the old guard and started afresh. It's inevitable. At some point we will have to get used to life without Gerrard and Carragher, and if we got rid of them in summer '10 instead of Rafa who's to say we'd be in a worse position than we are now? Carragher has been a bit part player since then anyway and you can count the number of matches that Gerrard has influenced in that time on two hands at the most, and he was reportedly looking for a move away from the club at that time anyway. But of course the club was under a sale process, so that means you can't sell your prized assets Gerrard, Carragher and Torres.

[Kenneth]

Houllier, like all of us, knew that Owen was special and set up his team to make the most of it. It wasn't always pretty to play on the counter but it was pretty effective. A deep midfield feeding Owen's runs but following up too. High balls to Heskey for him to knock down.

Most accounts also credit him with making us far more professional off the pitch. Less of a lads culture when he took charge and maybe that's partly why he and Robbie didn't get on too well.

[Dhav]

Houllier got us as close to the title as Rafa did, we finished 2nd with him as well. He didn't win the CL but still won more trophies than Rafa in the same amount of time.

I don't understand why so many look down upon Houllier, he took us from a very bad position, and took us forward. Houllier needed to leave when he did, just as I think it was the right time when Rafa left. Unfortunatly he was replace by a completely incompetent manager, and that is what makes Rafa's leaving look so bad in hindsight.

As Mr.M says there was a lot of things pointing to his departure at the time including politics, but it was hardly a rosey time result wise and on the pitch.

Actually mate, that's not technically correct. Rafa got us to within 4 points of the title, the best we ever did under Ged was 7 points behind the champions with an inferior goal difference, meaning we'd have needed an extra 8 points to win the league.

Yes Houllier won us more trophies than Rafa, but he didn't win either of the two that matter, and didn't really get us that close. Rafa won the Champions League, made us the most feared team in Europe and in Shaggy's words, got us to within a "cunt's hair" of winning the league. I don't think you can seriously compare their respective records, Rafa's trumps Houllier's in almost every respect - regularly progressing further in European competition and also getting a higher average league points tally.

Houllier left the team, squad and club and tied his successor's hands with the pay-off that he accepted and in particular the millions that he wasted in the transfer market. Now I don't blame him for accepting the full pay-off that he was entitled to, any of us would have done the same and bearing in mind his health issues you wouldn't begrudge him it. But Rafa accepted a far smaller pay-off than he was due when he left, such was his love for the club and community, notwithstanding the shoddy treatment he received.

The results at the end of Rafa's tenure weren't rosy because IMO the team was suffering from under-investment as a result of the tenure of the two yanks while all the clubs around us were spending fortunes strengthening which expedited our decline. For example weren't we all crying out for a striker in 09 after Kenae left? We got £12 - £16m for him by all accounts, and only Ngog at £2m came into replace him. I'm not sure any other manager would have got significantly more out of the team than Rafa did. The next manager did significantly worse, and Kenny after spending £110m has at best got the team performing at the same level as Rafa did in '10, if points and league position are anything to go by.

[Kenneth]

The match threads towards the end of Rafa's last season were full of reasonable posters commenting on how it really looked like Rafa had lost the players and that they weren't doing it for him anymore.

I wish now that it didn't come to that and that something had gone right and kept Rafa there - but that's 100% hindsight. At the time, I though it was time for him to go based on the awfulness of the performances and knowing that he was hated by, and fighting a losing battle against, those two cunts. Situation appeared untenable. And this place was most definitely not overrun with people demanding that Rafa be kept on.

this.

i have always said at the time it was lamentable but true he probably had to go.

still think he could do a fantastic job here now though.

[Darkon]

Actually mate, that's not technically correct. Rafa got us to within 4 points of the title, the best we ever did under Ged was 7 points behind the champions with an inferior goal difference, meaning we'd have needed an extra 8 points to win the league.

Yes Houllier won us more trophies than Rafa, but he didn't win either of the two that matter, and didn't really get us that close. Rafa won the Champions League, made us the most feared team in Europe and in Shaggy's words, got us to within a "cunt's hair" of winning the league. I don't think you can seriously compare their respective records, Rafa's trumps Houllier's in almost every respect - regularly progressing further in European competition and also getting a higher average league points tally.

Houllier left the team, squad and club and tied his successor's hands with the pay-off that he accepted and in particular the millions that he wasted in the transfer market. Now I don't blame him for accepting the full pay-off that he was entitled to, any of us would have done the same and bearing in mind his health issues you wouldn't begrudge him it. But Rafa accepted a far smaller pay-off than he was due when he left, such was his love for the club and community, notwithstanding the shoddy treatment he received.

The results at the end of Rafa's tenure weren't rosy because IMO the team was suffering from under-investment as a result of the tenure of the two yanks while all the clubs around us were spending fortunes strengthening which expedited our decline. For example weren't we all crying out for a striker in 09 after Kenae left? We got £12 - £16m for him by all accounts, and only Ngog at £2m came into replace him. I'm not sure any other manager would have got significantly more out of the team than Rafa did. The next manager did significantly worse, and Kenny after spending £110m has at best got the team performing at the same level as Rafa did in '10, if points and league position are anything to go by.

Yes yes, technically we were a few more points behind, but we still got the same metal and finished 2nd. I just don't understand anyones reason to talk down Houllier's time at our club, he won us trophies got our club up in tempo off pitch as well and as any manager including Rafa he made some good transfers and some bad ones. Just as I don't understand anyones reason to talk down what Rafa did here. It's almost like you have to talk down Houllier because it makes his successor look better, while in reality they both had their up's and down's.

Houllier did a lot for this club, including assembling the major part of the CL winning squad, that Rafa so brilliantly mastered with a few of his own signings on top. You can never really compare tenures as they all are in different times, with different opponents and challenges on and off the pitch. As said they both had up's and down's and probably left at the right time, Houllier was just replaced much better than Rafa and in hindsight makes it look much better..

[Tee]

I just detested, with an absolute passion, the type of football we played for the majority of Houllier's reign. Don't have to feel bad or apologise for that, its the way I honestly felt. I stopped enjoying watching my beloved Liverpool play - yes I would watch them but the football was dire.

The best part of his reign was when Thommo was in temporary charge - we actually seemed to improve our play.

Anyway, I think I have made my point on this subject clear in a few threads. Each to their own, and I know we had that incredible season under Houllier, but I will always remember him as the man who changed, well actually very nearly destroyed, the footballing ethos this club had built over 3 decades.

[Baracus]

I still remember getting beat 4-3 by Leeds/Viduka we were meant to win the league that year

[Gingawaria]

To be fair to Houllier, there was one point in the 2001/02 season where we were top of the league with 8 games left. Granted, we absolutely bottled it and ended up 7 points behind Arsenal but we still finished above The Scum which is the only time we have finished above them in the last 20 years. That's no mean feat.

I think Houllier stayed a season too long, but I don't think we should underestimate his contributions.

[G]

I just detested, with an absolute passion, the type of football we played for the majority of Houllier's reign. Don't have to feel bad or apologise for that, its the way I honestly felt. I stopped enjoying watching my beloved Liverpool play - yes I would watch them but the football was dire.

The best part of his reign was when Thommo was in temporary charge - we actually seemed to improve our play.

Anyway, I think I have made my point on this subject clear in a few threads. Each to their own, and I know we had that incredible season under Houllier, but I will always remember him as the man who changed, well actually very nearly destroyed, the footballing ethos this club had built over 3 decades.

I haven't enjoyed watching us play since Roy Evans left but both Rafa and Ged got results so you had to be pretty happy even though we weren't exactly entertaining. The season we finished second from about February onwards under Rafa was great football to watch. We all said at the time we thought he had finally thrown the shackles off.

Sadly he reverted to type the following season.

[Tee]

I haven't enjoyed watching us play since Roy Evans left but both Rafa and Ged got results so you had to be pretty happy even though we weren't exactly entertaining. The season we finished second from about February onwards under Rafa was great football to watch. We all said at the time we thought he had finally thrown the shackles off.

Sadly he reverted to type the following season.

[Dhav]

Yes yes, technically we were a few more points behind, but we still got the same metal and finished 2nd. I just don't understand anyones reason to talk down Houllier's time at our club, he won us trophies got our club up in tempo off pitch as well and as any manager including Rafa he made some good transfers and some bad ones. Just as I don't understand anyones reason to talk down what Rafa did here. It's almost like you have to talk down Houllier because it makes his successor look better, while in reality they both had their up's and down's.

Houllier did a lot for this club, including assembling the major part of the CL winning squad, that Rafa so brilliantly mastered with a few of his own signings on top. You can never really compare tenures as they all are in different times, with different opponents and challenges on and off the pitch. As said they both had up's and down's and probably left at the right time, Houllier was just replaced much better than Rafa and in hindsight makes it look much better..

Assembling the Champions League squad? Mate, the squad he left behind was an utter shambles, lop-sided, weak, thin, and Rafa leading that team to CL glory is testimony to his ability to acheive miracles in Europe rather than any legacy that Houllier left behind, which IMO was negligable. You can say Rafa only added two players to that squad, but those two players made all the difference - Alonso helped us control matches, Garcia was an impact player who got us 5 goals on the run to the final. Houllier's team, whatever it acheived, was universally reviled for its long ball, counter-attacking tactics, which were seriously flawed as shown by his last two seasons. For me there is no comparison.

[Darkon]

I understand perfectly well that you liked Rafa's tenure better, most does and myself included, I just don't understand why the need is to take away from Houllier what he did for the club?

Houllier did a lot for this club in taking it forward from Evans, both on and off the pitch. We didn't play the prettiest of football at times, but IMO it's something we have lacked for the entire last decade bar 1-2 seasons.

[Dhav]

I haven't enjoyed watching us play since Roy Evans left but both Rafa and Ged got results so you had to be pretty happy even though we weren't exactly entertaining. The season we finished second from about February onwards under Rafa was great football to watch. We all said at the time we thought he had finally thrown the shackles off.

Sadly he reverted to type the following season.

He reverted to type IMO simply because the team was dessimated by the lack of investment, made significantly weaker by losing players like Alonso and Arbeloa and having just the one decent striker in Torres, so he thought the best way he could maximise the players at his disposal was to play a more cautious game. I just do not think he had the confidence in that team being able to play in a carefree manner and get results.

[Chris]

He reverted to type IMO simply because the team was dessimated by the lack of investment, made significantly weaker by losing players like Alonso and Arbeloa and having just the one decent striker in Torres, so he thought the best way he could maximise the players at his disposal was to play a more cautious game. I just do not think he had the confidence in that team being able to play in a carefree manner and get results.

He pissed off Alonso lets not forget, finances might have been awful but he wasnt forced to try and flog him to get Gareth ****ing Barry.

[Roboklopp]

He reverted to type IMO simply because the team was dessimated by the lack of investment, made significantly weaker by losing players like Alonso and Arbeloa and having just the one decent striker in Torres, so he thought the best way he could maximise the players at his disposal was to play a more cautious game. I just do not think he had the confidence in that team being able to play in a carefree manner and get results.

As I remember it we were a little to gung-ho at 1st with Aquilani & Johnson & conceded a few before he "reverted to type." THe football was far more progressive than under GH in general though.

He pissed off Alonso lets not forget, finances might have been awful but he wasnt forced to try and flog him to get Gareth ****ing Barry.

Agreed, that was a huge ****ing mistake (although Barry has since shown he can play a very important role in a title-challenging team).

All managers are allowed a few though- Im not certain though that Xabi wouldnt have gone to Real regardless of whether the fall-out never happened at that stage.