Roberto Firmino

[Daniel 7]

From the current squad, I'd rather see Mane up top and central with Coutinho and Salah either side for a while, rather than Sturridge. Mane seems to have no worries or inhibitions - he's brimming with confidence.

I'd also like to see a proper, fully functioning striker brought in, a la Torres or Sturridge pre massive injuries. I just don't think Firmino is good enough to lead the line.

[Maxiedge]

Look, I'm not one to speculate but I don't think I've ever seen a footballer capable of such contrasting performances. We all know he's had issues off the pitch so I think now it's really time for him to grind down and become the best player he can be.

Some of those touches last night we unacceptable for a first rate footballer.

[Daniel 7]

Whatever is going on with him, he's definitely more Dirk Kuyt up front than Luis Suarez. He's a long, long way from good enough to lead the line for a team that wants to win the league.

[RedReet]

Yeah, if we look at our rivals.

ManU - Lukaku
City - Aguero
Spurs - Kane
Chelsea - Morata
Arsenal - Lacazette

all Centre forwards in form, all look a threat every game. We dont have that from our centre forward. We obviously have Mane and Salah in red hot form, but can we really go an entire season without poaching a few easy goals from an in form number 9?

I think people are exaggerating his 'form'. Less than two weeks ago he'd scored in 3 of the past 4 games, the 1 absent game being City. I expect this from the knee-jerkers and those that can't wait to say 'I told you so', but more sensible posters such as yourself also seem to be getting a bit carried away. At the start of September Kane hadn't scored a goal and Morata hadn't started a game, so who knows where we'll be at the end of this month. I also imagine it’s no coincidence that he stopped scoring once mane got suspended, even if it’s no excuse.

I also don't understand why it has to be a no.9 poaching these goals and why Firmino is compared against other No.9's when he's playing a different role. Why is Mane’s winning goal against Palace or Salah’s against Watford any less valid and if they continue that over the course of the saeason are we any worse off without a recognised CF?

I get the point people make about successful teams more often than not having a prolific CF, but considering our financial handicap, is it not wise to attempt something a little less conventional? People said when Suarez was here that we needed a proper CF and he should be played wide. When Rafa joined they said zonal marking was useless, that you can’t play with two holding midfielders, that one up top in the PL doesn’t work. Now it’s the norm. I’d say a few years ago that some people would argue that you couldn’t win the PL playing 3 at the back, yet Chelsea walked it last year. Now I don't expect teams to out and start buying Firmino clones and trying to emulate the way we play, but i also don't see any reason why we can't have success playing Firmino in the role we do, just because other teams don't.

[RedReet]

Whatever is going on with him, he's definitely more Dirk Kuyt up front than Luis Suarez. He's a long, long way from good enough to lead the line for a team that wants to win the league.

But he doesn't lead the line, that's the point, it's not his role. His average position over the course of a game is much deeper than Mane and Salah, so arguably they are leading the line, but for whatever reason their contributions can't be taken into consideration. As Klopp has said himself, he's there to create goals as much as score them (might actually have said his main role is to create), so if you compare him more to an AM rather than a CF, 4 goals and 3 assists is a pretty good return. Because his position on paper is a CF, everyone is comparing him to teh league's top scorers.

[Daniel 7]

Yeah, I trotted out the centre forward cliché there rather than saying that he isn't good enough to be relied upon to regularly score the goals that would lead to a title challenge.

I hate that "lead the line" crap as well

[Buzzo]

I think people are exaggerating his 'form'. Less than two weeks ago he'd scored in 3 of the past 4 games, the 1 absent game being City. I expect this from the knee-jerkers and those that can't wait to say 'I told you so', but more sensible posters such as yourself also seem to be getting a bit carried away. At the start of September Kane hadn't scored a goal and Morata hadn't started a game, so who knows where we'll be at the end of this month. I also imagine it’s no coincidence that he stopped scoring once mane got suspended, even if it’s no excuse.

I also don't understand why it has to be a no.9 poaching these goals and why Firmino is compared against other No.9's when he's playing a different role. Why is Mane’s winning goal against Palace or Salah’s against Watford any less valid and if they continue that over the course of the saeason are we any worse off without a recognised CF?

I get the point people make about successful teams more often than not having a prolific CF, but considering our financial handicap, is it not wise to attempt something a little less conventional? People said when Suarez was here that we needed a proper CF and he should be played wide. When Rafa joined they said zonal marking was useless, that you can’t play with two holding midfielders, that one up top in the PL doesn’t work. Now it’s the norm. I’d say a few years ago that some people would argue that you couldn’t win the PL playing 3 at the back, yet Chelsea walked it last year. Now I don't expect teams to out and start buying Firmino clones and trying to emulate the way we play, but i also don't see any reason why we can't have success playing Firmino in the role we do, just because other teams don't.

You had me at 'more sensible posters such as yourself'

I think there is an all round sense of frustration because we are so nearly there, and when you look at the attacking options theres not much missing.

We are soon due to give someone an absolute hiding I reckon.

[RedReet]

You had me at 'more sensible posters such as yourself'

I think there is an all round sense of frustration because we are so nearly there, and when you look at the attacking options theres not much missing.

We are soon due to give someone an absolute hiding I reckon.

We need to give someone a hiding to try and get some of these recent performances out of the system. Even though I don't think we're doing as bad as being made out, I would worry that a few more performances like last night or Burnley could start becoming a mental issue like we seem to have with set-pieces and conceding late goals. Unfortunately Newcastle away and United straight after the international break isn't going to do much to help our cause.

[Doc_Piptorious]

We need to give someone a hiding to try and get some of these recent performances out of the system. Even though I don't think we're doing as bad as being made out, I would worry that a few more performances like last night or Burnley could start becoming a mental issue like we seem to have with set-pieces and conceding late goals. Unfortunately Newcastle away and United straight after the international break isn't going to do much to help our cause.

Oh I don't know. They would be two great games to get a rub of the green to go with the chances we have been making, and as you said it would be a very good way to build confidence and maybe brush away a few doubts that may be creeping into the player's heads.

[RedReet]

Oh I don't know. They would be two great games to get a rub of the green to go with the chances we have been making, and as you said it would be a very good way to build confidence and maybe brush away a few doubts that may be creeping into the player's heads.

I'd be more confident if the matches were the other way around, but as long as we win on Sunday, who cares.

And if we are to beat United, I can see it being more of a Houllier/Murphy type match than a Rafa/Dossena performance.

[danperkins]

First of all I don't think anybody is denying his talent or work ethic which is key to the way Klopp likes to play... so lets get that out the way.

Firmino will score goals but will it be enough? I don't think so. Buzzo put a list up of all our rivals and there main goalscoring threats. When I say main goalscoring threat I mean guys that win you games, flat track bullies that punish lesser sides & guys that can take chances when chances are few and far between or are at crucial points in the game.

He racks up good numbers for an attacking midfielder that has been pushed into this more progressive lead role because he is so versatile but his performances are fairly contrasting over the course of the season. 13 Goals 8 Assists last season in all comps and 11 Goals 10 Assists previously which are decent stats to be fair. But Lukaku has 8 goals in all comps already this season, Aguero 8 Goals, Kane 12 Goals, Morata 6 Goals. It is still only September, this is the difference. An extra 3 or 4 goals could be an extra 3 or 4 wins.

It is all well and good saying we spread the goals around and that is a fair point but name a team that has won the league in any of the top leagues in the last few decades that hasn't relied on a main man to get them 20 or 30 goals per season? There isn't many. We dropped most of our points in the last few seasons against lesser sides that seem to be able negate of style of play, it's a common trend for us. This season we are creating chances but the guys can't put them away. Obviously our **** defending doesn't help, so scoring more than you concede is the only option for us it seems. If only we had a clinical striker in our side! Oh wait we do and he isn't getting enough game time to develop match sharpness. Sturridge was **** when he came on but there is no denying he looks sharp and hungry and he is a natural striker. I really thought he would have started last night.

We won't always create this many chances in games, can you imagine Aguero, Lukaku, Kane etc spearheading our attack with Salah, Mane & Coutinho, I reckon they would have an absolute field day. Now Firmino could go out in the next game and score and people will say these comments are over reacting but that is short term... his stats over the last 2 seasons for us don't lie & I am not knocking him, it is the role that he is being asked to play and is doing an admirable job.

Had this conversation a few times on here with various other posters about playing him in his natural position behind the front man (Sturridge or striker we should have bought in the window). So you still get his production levels, he is playing in his natural position & you still get his work rate in the midfield and we have a natural CF sitting infront of him, Mane, Salah, Coutinho etc.

It's not just last nights game, this goes back to the last season aswell so I hopefully won't be accused of making a hyperbolic reaction. I like the guy, work hard, gets decent production levels, can be magic on his day but is not clinical enough in front of goal long term, can be inconsistent and go through regular patches of bad form. Klopp won't change it up but we really do need to know whether Sturridge can still cut it. We potentially have a diamond striker that is being under utilised in a team that is crying out for a clinical striker. Given Sturridge's injury history, I really hoped we would go in the market for a top striker but that didn't happen. Last night's game in isolation, a 1 all draw away in Russia seems like a great result. Truth is though, we are a far superior side to them, they were decimated by injuries and had all their best missing & like previous games we missed numerous chances to kill the game off early. It is an unfortunate fact that we have to rely on our attacking players to score more than we inevitably concede.

[RedReet]

Long post warning. Sorry.

First of all I don't think anybody is denying his talent or work ethic which is key to the way Klopp likes to play... so lets get that out the way.

Firmino will score goals but will it be enough? I don't think so. Buzzo put a list up of all our rivals and there main goalscoring threats. When I say main goalscoring threat I mean guys that win you games, flat track bullies that punish lesser sides & guys that can take chances when chances are few and far between or are at crucial points in the game.

Time will tell.

He racks up good numbers for an attacking midfielder that has been pushed into this more progressive lead role because he is so versatile but his performances are fairly contrasting over the course of the season. 13 Goals 8 Assists last season in all comps and 11 Goals 10 Assists previously which are decent stats to be fair. But Lukaku has 8 goals in all comps already this season, Aguero 8 Goals, Kane 12 Goals, Morata 6 Goals. It is still only September, this is the difference. An extra 3 or 4 goals could be an extra 3 or 4 wins.

A lot of them goals didn’t count for anything though. Salah has got 4 goals in the 5 games he started, only Lukaku can match that record. For some bizarre reason this contribution is dismissed because he’s playing on the wing and Firmino’s role in these goals counts for nothing.

Last season Lukaku scored a **** load for Everton, yet IIRC these goals didn’t equate to many points according to the stats. Everton obviously had a decent season though and Lukaku obviously played his part, but his all round contribution and the goals from his team mates were clearly a more important factor than the goals he scored himself.

It is all well and good saying we spread the goals around and that is a fair point but name a team that has won the league in any of the top leagues in the last few decades that hasn't relied on a main man to get them 20 or 30 goals per season? There isn't many.

This is the favourite line and normally the closing argument in this debate, but it’s a weak argument IMO. Is the CF scoring a lot of goals because he’s playing for the best team in the league or are they the best team in the league because the CF is scoring goals? I would argue it’s as much to do with the former, but surely everyone would have to concede it’s at least a bit of both. Bar Leicester, generally teams don’t come from nowhere to win a league title, so they’ll more than likely be buying the best forwards, so it’s common sense to expect that they’ll be scoring regularly if the team have a good season. A counter argument to this would be, how often does the top scorer in a league finish with a league winners medal? Well in the PL it hasn’t happened since RVP at United and in fact only 4 times in the past 14 years, so maybe it’s not as important a factor as many like to present.

And also, despite the great CF’s we’ve had down the years, we’ve hardly ever come close to winning the PL. The closest season being the one year we decided to play without a natural CF, who many also argued wasn’t suited to the role.

We dropped most of our points in the last few seasons against lesser sides that seem to be able negate of style of play, it's a common trend for us. This season we are creating chances but the guys can't put them away. Obviously our **** defending doesn't help, so scoring more than you concede is the only option for us it seems.

That’s logical of course, but I doubt the solution is as simple as

If only we had a clinical striker in our side! Oh wait we do and he isn't getting enough game time to develop match sharpness. Sturridge was **** when he came on but there is no denying he looks sharp and hungry and he is a natural striker. I really thought he would have started last night.

Weak argument again. The only reason Sturridge is talked about a good striker is he has that ability to come straight back from injury and start banging the goals in again. If he was like Owen, took him a run of games to get sharp, he’d be finished a long time ago. I’m not saying lack of match practice isn’t a factor, but saying Firmino is missing easy chances because he’s not a striker, but the ‘clinical’ Sturridge is missing easy chances because he isn’t playing enough is twisting the facts to suit your argument.

It’s also noticeable that when Sturridge comes on, the roles of our wide players change. Couldn’t be arsed looking back, but I’m pretty sure Salah has moved left twice to accommodate him, becoming more or a natural winger than an inside forward. It was an odd decision to bring Mane off on Tuesday, but if it was tactical, my guess would be that with Sturridge on the pitch, the same space isn’t there for Mane and Salah to operate (even though he too likes to drop deep), which indicates to me that people completely underestimate the importance Firmino’s role is to the effectiveness of our wide players. I’m sure there are other examples of this too, but that’s just off the top of my head.

We won't always create this many chances in games, can you imagine Aguero, Lukaku, Kane etc spearheading our attack with Salah, Mane & Coutinho, I reckon they would have an absolute field day.

Possibly. But with Kane shooting on sight, Lukaku and Aguero hanging about the box and taking up space that Mane and Salah normally exploit, how will that affect their output? What good is it having a CF that will score 10 more goals if potentially our wingers score 10 less?

Now Firmino could go out in the next game and score and people will say these comments are over reacting but that is short term... his stats over the last 2 seasons for us don't lie & I am not knocking him, it is the role that he is being asked to play and is doing an admirable job.

Had this conversation a few times on here with various other posters about playing him in his natural position behind the front man (Sturridge or striker we should have bought in the window). So you still get his production levels, he is playing in his natural position & you still get his work rate in the midfield and we have a natural CF sitting infront of him, Mane, Salah, Coutinho etc.

I think I’ve already sort of covered this, but I think this is a bit silly. We’ve been crying out for Coutinho to play in the centre since we finished runners up, so what impact will this have on him with Firmino taking up similar positions? As I said before, play this CF up top like everyone wants, how does this impact on Mane and Salah? It’s far too simplistic to say that if we play a natural CF, we’ll still create as many chances and the only difference will be that he’ll be there to finish them off.

It's not just last nights game, this goes back to the last season aswell so I hopefully won't be accused of making a hyperbolic reaction. I like the guy, work hard, gets decent production levels, can be magic on his day but is not clinical enough in front of goal long term, can be inconsistent and go through regular patches of bad form.

Last season Firmino was poor, well numbers wise anyway. Despite that we only scored 7 less goals than champion’s Chelsea and 8 less than top scorers Spurs. Those stats are also slightly skewed by the fact we tightened up towards the end of the season and they scored about 100 goals between them in the last few weeks. I think it’s fair to assume that the addition of Salah alone could make up those extra goals, so why would we change the whole balance of our attack to try and accommodate a more natural CF who may or may not score more goals?

I’m also a bit confused by the maths of it all. The suggestion is that a proper CF will help us score another 15-20 goals. Chelsea and Spurs have that player, in fact they have/had two of the best in the league, yet we still had a similar goal scoring record (until May anyway). The assumption is then that if we go sign a similar player, then we’ll not only match them (as we had done), but score more than them, purely because we are playing a CF, the same as them? I don’t get it.

Klopp won't change it up but we really do need to know whether Sturridge can still cut it. We potentially have a diamond striker that is being under utilised in a team that is crying out for a clinical striker. Given Sturridge's injury history, I really hoped we would go in the market for a top striker but that didn't happen. Last night's game in isolation, a 1 all draw away in Russia seems like a great result. Truth is though, we are a far superior side to them, they were decimated by injuries and had all their best missing & like previous games we missed numerous chances to kill the game off early. It is an unfortunate fact that we have to rely on our attacking players to score more than we inevitably concede.

I'll leave this be as I'm boring myself now.

What I will finish with is you said in this post ‘now Firmino could go out in the next game and score’ and you said in preseason ‘not changing my opinion, he’s not a striker’, which begs the question, what’s the point and why have I bothered? If he scores again and brings his average up to 1 in 2, it doesn’t matter as you’ve already decided he’s not a striker and that will always be the problem.

[Rich]

Yeah, if we look at our rivals.

ManU - Lukaku
City - Aguero
Spurs - Kane
Chelsea - Morata
Arsenal - Lacazette

all Centre forwards in form, all look a threat every game. We dont have that from our centre forward. We obviously have Mane and Salah in red hot form, but can we really go an entire season without poaching a few easy goals from an in form number 9?

I mentioned similar over the summer. All our rivals have a striker that's good for 20/25 possibly even 30 goals over the season, Firmino brings a lot to our team but so far, he hasn't displayed enough ability in front of goal.

You could argue that if our main front 3 all contribute 15/20 goals each then you don't need all the goals coming from a single striker HOWEVER, you'll find that those strikers can often be the difference between a draw and a win when one moment of class finishing changes the game.

I wouldn't say its a priority - a couple of really good CBs, a proper DM and a commanding GK for me are bigger issues in the squad - but I think we'll always fall a little short if Firmino is our main #9.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Just be like me instead. I want us to have a clinical striker AND Firmino starting in the same team


Works a treat for me in Fifa

[Doc_Piptorious]

I mentioned similar over the summer. All our rivals have a striker that's good for 20/25 possibly even 30 goals over the season, Firmino brings a lot to our team but so far, he hasn't displayed enough ability in front of goal.

You could argue that if our main front 3 all contribute 15/20 goals each then you don't need all the goals coming from a single striker HOWEVER, you'll find that those strikers can often be the difference between a draw and a win when one moment of class finishing changes the game.

I wouldn't say its a priority - a couple of really good CBs, a proper DM and a commanding GK for me are bigger issues in the squad - but I think we'll always fall a little short if Firmino is our main #9.

Tbh I think if we added serious quality to our midfield, backline and in goals, then the goals from our current front three may well be enough for us to be genuine challengers.

As always it falls into the realm of ifs and maybes, but if our midfield and backline were of great quality or rather of greater consistency in terms of effectove performances then I don't se how we would not be able to challenge.


I am loathe to use them as an example, but the Mancs are showing what can be done to team's in the lower half if you have a strong attack in front of a midfield and backline that can work as cohesive units. Now I don't for a second want to play like them or have a manager that is as big a tosspot as their manager, but I do believe we are only a few upgrades away from being able to put away the so called lesser teams with the same sort of regularity as they have been doing.