Thiago Alcantara

[Doc_Piptorious]

The movement up top has been dire all season. Vs Spurs Bobby's movement was fantastic showing for the ball in deep and wide positions and his first touch was fantastic. That's pretty much the only game I can think of that he had a stand out game in 2020. His quality movement and touch has gone off a cliff, Salah is often tightly marked but even his movement has been poor but imo when Mane's movement is static then you know something is wrong. That's pretty much the way it has been most of the season and I completely get that when Thiago gets the ball there is nothing to play to. It doesn't help playing with Milner who could hardly move & Gini is apart from the recent games in London is playing at about 50%.

In saying all that, Thiago is very slow on the ball and vs "low block" sides he needs to be quicker in moving it, he's just hanging on it for a second longer than he needs to. He's a worldie and no doubts we will see the best of him if we ever get our midfield back but he has struggled a bit. We need to get Hendo back into the midfield asap, he's the key.

And if there is no movement around him and nobody showing for the ball, how does he move it quickly amd more importantly effectively? Every time last night he released it quickly to the feet of one of our guys, then they went and miscontrolled it or lost it almost straight away.

Thiago for most of his career has been a midfielder who style of play made him almost press proof. We seem to have found a way to turn that player into being a workhorse.

Just to look at Thiago a little by the numbers from last night.

He had

102 touches of the ball
90 passes - 81 successful passes - 90% PS
75% accuracy with long balls.
7 tackles attempted - Six successful tackles
7 duels won (50/50s)
9 recoveries of the ball
I interception
Dispossessed 0 times


Milner

92 touches of the ball
79 passes - 69 successful passes - 87% PS
0% accuracy with long balls (3 attempted)
1 successful tackle in 90 minutes
5 duels won
7 recoveries of the ball
0 interceptions
Dispossessed 1 time


Wijnaldum

36 touches of the ball
28 passes - 25 successful passes - 89% PS
0% accuracy with long balls
0 successful tackles
2 duels won (8 lost)
3 recoveries of the ball
0 interceptions
Dispossessed 3 times



So our skillful midfielder is the one putting in the workhorse shift and was being pretty damn good at being our defensive mainstay on the night, and our two midfielders that we expect the higher workrate and better defensive work from lack far behind him.

We did have players slowing the midfield down badly last night and not doing much going back or forward, butThiago was not one of them.

[BigChief]

And if there is no movement around him and nobody showing for the ball, how does he move it quickly amd more importantly effectively? Every time last night he released it quickly to the feet of one of our guys, then they went and miscontrolled it or lost it almost straight away.

Thiago for most of his career has been a midfielder who style of play made him almost press proof. We seem to have found a way to turn that player into being a workhorse.

Just to look at Thiago a little by the numbers from last night.

He had

102 touches of the ball
90 passes - 81 successful passes - 90% PS
75% accuracy with long balls.
7 tackles attempted - Six successful tackles
7 duels won (50/50s)
9 recoveries of the ball
I interception
Dispossessed 0 times


Milner

92 touches of the ball
79 passes - 69 successful passes - 87% PS
0% accuracy with long balls (3 attempted)
1 successful tackle in 90 minutes
5 duels won
7 recoveries of the ball
0 interceptions
Dispossessed 1 time


Wijnaldum

36 touches of the ball
28 passes - 25 successful passes - 89% PS
0% accuracy with long balls
0 successful tackles
2 duels won (8 lost)
3 recoveries of the ball
0 interceptions
Dispossessed 3 times



So our skillful midfielder is the one putting in the workhorse shift and was being pretty damn good at being our defensive mainstay on the night, and our two midfielders that we expect the higher workrate and better defensive work from lack far behind him.

We did have players slowing the midfield down badly last night and not doing much going back or forward, butThiago was not one of them.

Good analysis. Some people will defend our old guard no matter what, even if it means shooting the new guy. You didn't need stats, just your eyes, to see that Gini, Milner and even Firmino are not our future. They are our (very successful) past. But past nevertheless. Teams have evaluated their strengths and weaknesses and play accordingly now.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Good analysis. Some people will defend our old guard no matter what, even if it means shooting the new guy. You didn't need stats, just your eyes, to see that Gini, Milner and even Firmino are not our future. They are our (very successful) past. But past nevertheless. Teams have evaluated their strengths and weaknesses and play accordingly now.

Oh for me Thiago was the only midfielder passing the eye test last night, but I decided I would dig into the figures for what I thought he did well last night, and then I just carried on and looked at Milner and Wijnaldum.

The figures pretty matched to what the eyes saw.

[Norbs]

I thought Gini looked disinterested, those stats seem to confirm he wasn't involved enough

[Doc_Piptorious]

I thought Gini looked disinterested, those stats seem to confirm he wasn't involved enough

In Wijnaldums defense, he did not play a full game but if you scale his stats up to match 90 minutes at the same level of output and he still comes in as having the worst numbers of the three that started.

[ntto]

i think with Thiago everybody is looking to pass to him, there have been loads of situations when somebody has been on the ball and taken the pass to Thiago rather than a better option. Trent does it all the time

[Doc_Piptorious]

i think with Thiago everybody is looking to pass to him, there have been loads of situations when somebody has been on the ball and taken the pass to Thiago rather than a better option. Trent does it all the time

Noticed a bit of that as well and wondered if it was a sign of some players not being as confident as they used to be. Looked at times that the passing player just looked to sent it at Thiago regardless and that sometimes a player that looked to be in a good position to receive the ball in a more advanced position did not really show for the ball or move quickly to make a bit of space to receive the ball and the passer just sent it at Thiago instead.


Now that works fine when we have a few better players in the team or when the team we are playing against comes at us more as then Thiago will see the gaps behind that team and get the ball to one of our players as there would be more natural space to counter the receiving player miscontrolling a bit.

But against the low block and sitting deep teams the receiving players really need to be doing their bit to make a run or a turn to make a half yard of space in case they do not control the ball as it comes to them. Thiago is still finding players with the ball against the low block teams but all he has to aim out are our forward players standing right beside a defender so he does his bit and finds the player but the ball is then somewhere it can be defended. When that happens we then seem to default into trying to shuttle the ball wide (and slowing the pace greatly as we do so) and crossing it in high against tall backlines that are sitting deep.

[greenturnip]

When everyone is fit (assuming that ever happens) I would like too see Fab as our holding midfielder. The question then is how/can Hendo and Thiago will work together. They're a bit one-paced and similar for me...I think we miss Naby breaking the lines and causing chaos. When there is no movement up front or too many poor touches, the Hendo/Thiago through-ball style is less effective.

[super_xabi]

Noticed a bit of that as well and wondered if it was a sign of some players not being as confident as they used to be. Looked at times that the passing player just looked to sent it at Thiago regardless and that sometimes a player that looked to be in a good position to receive the ball in a more advanced position did not really show for the ball or move quickly to make a bit of space to receive the ball and the passer just sent it at Thiago instead.


Now that works fine when we have a few better players in the team or when the team we are playing against comes at us more as then Thiago will see the gaps behind that team and get the ball to one of our players as there would be more natural space to counter the receiving player miscontrolling a bit.

But against the low block and sitting deep teams the receiving players really need to be doing their bit to make a run or a turn to make a half yard of space in case they do not control the ball as it comes to them. Thiago is still finding players with the ball against the low block teams but all he has to aim out are our forward players standing right beside a defender so he does his bit and finds the player but the ball is then somewhere it can be defended. When that happens we then seem to default into trying to shuttle the ball wide (and slowing the pace greatly as we do so) and crossing it in high against tall backlines that are sitting deep.

And all those aimless crosses fron Trent were infuriating again. He must have been looking for that man mountain Shaq at the back post

[Doc_Piptorious]

When everyone is fit (assuming that ever happens) I would like too see Fab as our holding midfielder. The question then is how/can Hendo and Thiago will work together. They're a bit one-paced and similar for me...I think we miss Naby breaking the lines and causing chaos. When there is no movement up front or too many poor touches, the Hendo/Thiago through-ball style is less effective.

I think Henderson would be the somewhat more advanced of the two in that situation and be playing in sort of a similar role to what Goretzka did at Bayern when he was in the centre with Thiago with Kimmich as the CDM.

When Fabinho is in the centre for us, Henderson does tend to be more of a box to box player and Thiago excels as in the pivot between a CDM and a box to box midfielder.

Would not be much of a stretch to see Henderson do that as it is not that different to what he was doing a lot of the time in the middle last season. With Thiago sitting in the pivot slot it would actually free up Henderson a lot more when we had the ball and allow him to advance a lot more. Thiago would still carry the ball himself into advanced positions, like he did at Bayern for years, but Henderson could well start become a more regular getter of goals and/or assists in that set up.

Was actually thinking a few weeks ago who would I love to see replace Henderson if for some reason we had to get a player to play instead of him and the two names I kept going back to were Goretzka and Valverde. Reason I went to those two names (and not saying they would be players that their clubs would just sell to us) was I wanted a player that could bring a very high level of all round play and that can play in a manner that meshes with how we play when we are at our best. Think it says a lot for how much Henderson has come on in the past number of years that those are the sort of players I think would be needed if we were to replace him with a "ready made" player. Go back maybe six or seven years ago and I never saw Henderson being the sort of player that you would need to be looking at top level players in order to replace him.

[BigChief]

And all those aimless crosses fron Trent were infuriating again. He must have been looking for that man mountain Shaq at the back post

It's frustrating to watch but got to have some sympathy for him. Whenever we have the ball in the middle it's a case of "look wide, usually for TAA. Then stop moving". Even when he's with Salah there, Mo doesn't make a single run to the line with his right foot. Cuts in to his left, is immediately read and so has to pass to TAA.

TAA tries to bring Milner and Gini to do some magic as the opposition WANT the ball at those two's feet all the time. Guess what happens next? A couple of crab passes, goes back to Nat, and then "look for TAA, stop moving". To break this cycle of **** TAA has to cross it because there's three men on him if he tries to run to the line himself.

Klopp must see this against **** teams? Please Jurgen. See this. Please.

[danperkins]

And if there is no movement around him and nobody showing for the ball, how does he move it quickly amd more importantly effectively? Every time last night he released it quickly to the feet of one of our guys, then they went and miscontrolled it or lost it almost straight away.

Thiago for most of his career has been a midfielder who style of play made him almost press proof. We seem to have found a way to turn that player into being a workhorse.

Just to look at Thiago a little by the numbers from last night.

He had

102 touches of the ball
90 passes - 81 successful passes - 90% PS
75% accuracy with long balls.
7 tackles attempted - Six successful tackles
7 duels won (50/50s)
9 recoveries of the ball
I interception
Dispossessed 0 times


Milner

92 touches of the ball
79 passes - 69 successful passes - 87% PS
0% accuracy with long balls (3 attempted)
1 successful tackle in 90 minutes
5 duels won
7 recoveries of the ball
0 interceptions
Dispossessed 1 time


Wijnaldum

36 touches of the ball
28 passes - 25 successful passes - 89% PS
0% accuracy with long balls
0 successful tackles
2 duels won (8 lost)
3 recoveries of the ball
0 interceptions
Dispossessed 3 times



So our skillful midfielder is the one putting in the workhorse shift and was being pretty damn good at being our defensive mainstay on the night, and our two midfielders that we expect the higher workrate and better defensive work from lack far behind him.

We did have players slowing the midfield down badly last night and not doing much going back or forward, butThiago was not one of them.

I've pretty much said exactly what you're saying across various threads and I agree the movement is poor and certain players i.e Bobby have looked a bit like Bambi when trying to control a football. Also that we didn't buy him to be running around like a greyhound but unfortunately that's the situation we are in.

He has done ok, why am I bit disappointed in him so far? Because he is world class and I want to see more of him dictating play. I thought he would drive us forward in the absence of Hendo in that midfield. I am not worried about him and its pretty obvious he is not being used in a role that's suits his skill set but even his sideways balls are that second too slow imo.

Hendo back in midfield and Jota as a runner and suddenly things could look a lot different and makes us far less predictable than we are now. When will we see that? **** knows anymore but one things for sure this inane, repetitive ****e we keep playing has to stop.

[Doc_Piptorious]

I've pretty much said exactly what you're saying across various threads and I agree the movement is poor and certain players i.e Bobby have looked a bit like Bambi when trying to control a football. Also that we didn't buy him to be running around like a greyhound but unfortunately that's the situation we are in.

He has done ok, why am I bit disappointed in him so far? Because he is world class and I want to see more of him dictating play. I thought he would drive us forward in the absence of Hendo in that midfield. I am not worried about him and its pretty obvious he is not being used in a role that's suits his skill set but even his sideways balls are that second too slow imo.

Hendo back in midfield and Jota as a runner and suddenly things could look a lot different and makes us far less predictable than we are now. When will we see that? **** knows anymore but one things for sure this inane, repetitive ****e we keep playing has to stop.

But with very poor movement around him, with other players taking the safety first option a lot and with the front three either not showing for balls or miscontrolling the passes that do find him, and with Thiago more or less having to do the workhorse and DM roles, how is he meant to be doing what you hoped he would be doing?

He is out working the guys we expect to be the hard workers in the middle and doing more of the heavy lifting than them. He is doing what Henderson would do or what Fabinho would be doing in that Thiago is now the one having to cover for others and he is the one that is trying to drop deep to anticipate the other team attacking and Thiago is also the one that is moving left and right to give a full back some cover and also to give the full backs a passing option.

The only way Thiago can do what you and all the rest of us want to see him do on a regular basis is when we get guys back int the midfield that will do what Thiago is currently having to do and to the same level or higher at doing that stuff to what Thiago is currently doing.

In short we need Henderson and Fabinho level players back in the middle doing their respective roles so that Thiago can go and be Thiago in the middle for us.

[danperkins]

But with very poor movement around him, with other players taking the safety first option a lot and with the front three either not showing for balls or miscontrolling the passes that do find him, and with Thiago more or less having to do the workhorse and DM roles, how is he meant to be doing what you hoped he would be doing?

He is out working the guys we expect to be the hard workers in the middle and doing more of the heavy lifting than them. He is doing what Henderson would do or what Fabinho would be doing in that Thiago is now the one having to cover for others and he is the one that is trying to drop deep to anticipate the other team attacking and Thiago is also the one that is moving left and right to give a full back some cover and also to give the full backs a passing option.

The only way Thiago can do what you and all the rest of us want to see him do on a regular basis is when we get guys back int the midfield that will do what Thiago is currently having to do and to the same level or higher at doing that stuff to what Thiago is currently doing.

In short we need Henderson and Fabinho level players back in the middle doing their respective roles so that Thiago can go and be Thiago in the middle for us.

I get what you're saying but he still has Gini and Milly beside him who are work horses, he is there to provide the class and guile. Obviously the midfield situation is not ideal but that's where we are and players need to step up.

What can he do differently? Move the ball quicker maybe, it's been mentioned few times now. If there's a lack of movement maybe he needs to drive forward more, we've seen glimpses of him skipping past players with ease. Taking on players is something that seems to have our entire squad petrified to do, instead we just pass it out to Robbo or Trent who cross it into packed boxes and it gets cleared and then we do it again, and again and again. It's not just Thiago that needs to drive forward, its a problem in our squad, one of which people thought Ox could solve but he clearly isn't the answer.

Aimless slow passing is risk free football, we bought Thiago because he has that x factor and even though the movement around him has deteriorated he isn't playing with **** players, we just need to try different approaches. Somebody has to take these games by the scruff of the neck and take responsibility. Thiago is arguably the most gifted footballer in that squad and frankly one of the most gifted in world football I refuse to believe he can only excel with a specific midfield of Hendo and Fab, he's too good to be pigeon holed like that.

Yes the movement hasn't been great and yes Hendo and Fab would free him up more but even under the current circumstances he is more than capable of doing better and will imo. We just need to mix it up more and work on playing through the middle of the pitch aswell as working in the wide areas, we did it so well vs a deep sitting Spurs, so there is no reason why we can't do vs other sides.

[Doc_Piptorious]

I get what you're saying but he still has Gini and Milly beside him who are work horses, he is there to provide the class and guile. Obviously the midfield situation is not ideal but that's where we are and players need to step up.

What can he do differently? Move the ball quicker maybe, it's been mentioned few times now. If there's a lack of movement maybe he needs to drive forward more, we've seen glimpses of him skipping past players with ease. Taking on players is something that seems to have our entire squad petrified to do, instead we just pass it out to Robbo or Trent who cross it into packed boxes and it gets cleared and then we do it again, and again and again. It's not just Thiago that needs to drive forward, its a problem in our squad, one of which people thought Ox could solve but he clearly isn't the answer.

Aimless slow passing is risk free football, we bought Thiago because he has that x factor and even though the movement around him has deteriorated he isn't playing with **** players, we just need to try different approaches. Somebody has to take these games by the scruff of the neck and take responsibility. Thiago is arguably the most gifted footballer in that squad and frankly one of the most gifted in world football I refuse to believe he can only excel with a specific midfield of Hendo and Fab, he's too good to be pigeon holed like that.

Yes the movement hasn't been great and yes Hendo and Fab would free him up more but even under the current circumstances he is more than capable of doing better and will imo. We just need to mix it up more and work on playing through the middle of the pitch aswell as working in the wide areas, we did it so well vs a deep sitting Spurs, so there is no reason why we can't do vs other sides.

In theory yes, but as we saw against Brighton those two simply did not bring the workrate or any effectiveness in terms of doing the bread and butter stuff so Thiago then had to go and do that.

So we had a situation where the workhorses did not effectively do what they were to do, and the finesse player ended up doing the job of the workhorses and as such having to be the only effectove workhorse on the night.

What we needed when Thiago was having to do the DM role was for Wijnaldum to start doing the role he does for the Dutch national team and making the sort of forward runs he does for the Oranje.


So we can say that Thiago needs to be providing the creative spark all we like, but if the more defensive midfielders around him are not performing their role as well as they have in the past forcing Thiago to do that role, and the forwards are being quite static and we have little by way of runners from deep, I really do not see how Thiago should provide a creative spark.


What I see in Thiago is an experienced pro who is sacrificing his natural game to try and help plug holes that are being left in front of the CBs and in front of the fullbacks. He is very much not the issue in games like the one against Brighton, but rather that issue lies at the feet of the two other men in the middle.

At times we are playing like three separate units as we have very little cohesion being provided by our midfield as it sits between our attacking unit and our defensive unit and is like a buffer at times for any transitions.


A fully fit Henderson in there instead of say Milner would make a big difference as suddenly Thiago has someone else in midfield that will share some of the donkey work when we need to grind out play or are on the back foot. Now drop Fabinho in there as well and you get a situation where both Thiago and Henderson have world class cover sitting behind them that allows both to go and play their own game and both will come back and cover when we are pressed.

It is why I said in a few other threads that I would be gambling on putting the new CBs in as a pairing as soon as we can once we have both Fab and Henderson available and fit. That way Henderson and Fab go back to the middle with Thiago, we get two CBs behind them that are settling but that are natiral CBs. And in every position we have players in their natural slots rather than trying to fit world class midfielders into CB slots and trying to put back up midfielders into where the world class midfielders had been, and all these changes happening at the same time.

Put the two new CBs into the CB slots and we then end up with 9 players used to our set up and all in their best positions and we get two CBs still settling but who are a natural Right and left sided CB sitting in the CB roles.

For my money that would help bring some confidence back into the team. Players would go back to having the regular level of quality in front of them or beside them. Familar runs and patterns would be taking place, and there would be less drops offs in quality all over the pitch because we have more first team level guys in their proper positions.