Racism in Football

[Neil Young]

I'm not sure what your issue is here Neil. Was it ok for rio to attack Cole in that way? Is it a topic the FA cannot involve themselves in, particularly because they are all white?

As you appear to be the only person to have used the term 'racist' I am struggling to see who you are criticising and why.

It's obviously not a particularly edifying comment and I think it's a pity Ferdinand said it. But I'm criticising the FA for having a simplistic rule and even less understanding of the issues around it.

If you'll excuse the unfortunate pun, racism isn't a black and white issue, at least not in the way the FA rule seems to view it.

And it reminds me of the kind of approach someone like Toby Young might take.

Was it purely down to bringing the game into disrepute? One professional going after another in the public domain?

If that's all it is then I don't have a problem with it. But the rule Kenneth mentioned above brings race/ethnic origin into it.

[Neil Young]

Maybe, but surely noone believes him about that.

Sure, I harbour my doubts too. But there is an issue about cultural understanding there and the attendant irony involved. Still, that's a different issue that's been done to death.

[Kenneth]

It's obviously not a particularly edifying comment and I think it's a pity Ferdinand said it. But I'm criticising the FA for having a simplistic rule and even less understanding of the issues around it.

If you'll excuse the unfortunate pun, racism isn't a black and white issue, at least not in the way the FA rule seems to view it.

And it reminds me of the kind of approach someone like Toby Young might take.


If that's all it is then I don't have a problem with it. But the rule Kenneth mentioned above brings race/ethnic origin into it.

I think it's right that the FA take action personally. He was clearly attacking cole, and in a way that could be very hurtful. It's a very taboo term, well coconut is, and rio knew this. To accuse cole of selling out his black identity is something cole should receive protection from and is certainly an aggregating factor over a simple case of abusive language. I wouldn't call it racist, but it certainly fits the description of the charge that has been brought against him. We know the FA are dicks, but I don't think there is evidence that they are dealing with this in the wrong way tbh.

[Neil Young]

I don't agree but it's a fair point about protecting Cole. Although don't they claim to be friends?

[Kenneth]

Maybe less so now.

[Nicey]

If anyone is interested, Ferdinand has been charged by the FA over the "choc ice" comment.

And so he ****ing well should be ... you cant have it both ways

[BootRoom]

How is one black man calling another black man a 'choc ice' racist?

Are we supposed to pretend that there is no such thing as black identity?

I don't think I've heard the words choc ice used this much outside a Mr Whippy ice cream van. Rio Ferdinand, hitherto the aggrieved but mostly silent big brother of Anton Ferdinand who was – according to Judge Riddle – not racially abused, broke his silence on the matter to agree with a tweet that called Ashley Cole a choc ice. Choc ices, like coconuts, Oreos and Bounty chocolate bars, are black on the outside and white on the inside. Rio Ferdinand has now been deemed a racist.

As a criminal barrister, I once defended a black man who was charged with a racially aggravated Section 5 offence (aka, the John Terry offence) for calling another black man a coconut. My client swore that he didn't use the word as a racist term, but simply as a reference to the victim's "big head". He was not believed and was guilty in the eyes of the law.

To be guilty of most offences in law, there has to be a mental element as well as the actual offence. So with racist words, the words obviously have to be said, but your intention in saying them is of paramount importance. To judge a person's intention, the context in which the words were said is critical. So Chelsea player Terry was found not guilty for using racist words, in a context where there was a possibility that he could have been repeating them in a sarcastic manner. My client was found guilty, on the other hand, for using the seemingly more innocuous word coconut, because the context in which he used that word was as a black man, being arrested by a black police officer. My client, in essence, insulted his arresting officer because he thought the policeman should cut him some slack as a fellow black man. He didn't call him the N-word but in a way, he might as well have, because he chose a word based of the colour of the man's skin.

Having said all this though, the question remains – was Ferdinand being racist? I ask myself: what was his intention, and what was the context? Ferdinand himself clarified the tweet by saying that he meant that Ashley Cole was fake. The context, as we all know, is that Cole had just given evidence on behalf of Terry. And let's get down to the bare bones of the issue: a black man gave evidence in favour of a white man accused of racially abusing another black man. If Ferdinand was not being racist in agreeing with the tweeted choc ice slur, it leaves the question, how does what Cole did make him fake?

Among black people there is a widely held notion that there should be some sort of racial solidarity. Black people should stick together in all things against the "white" establishment. Words such as coconut are used to remind the "brothers" where their loyalties should lie.

However, this is a blind loyalty, it means you should support members of your race, whatever the situation, or be accused of being not black enough. So being black is no longer just the colour of your skin, it's your behaviour. The tweet that made Ferdinand the focus of attention said sneeringly that Cole "has always been a sell-out"; but who exactly was Cole selling out? The Ferdinand family, or black people in general?

Cole may be a black man, but he should be allowed the freedom to make his own decisions regardless of his race, as should we all, and he shouldn't be called names because of the choices he makes.

Choc ice, Bounty bars etc, are harmless words on the surface, unlike the N-word, which is well established as a racial slur. However, the use of these words in everyday parlance belies their hurtful and, yes, racial, meaning when applied to a person who is accused of breaking the unwritten code of racial solidarity. In some ways, these words have become the new N-word.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...nd-ashley-cole

[Neil Young]

Ok, so Cole is free to make whatever decision he wants. And Ferdinand isn't free to comment on it.

Right, that's clear.

It's just simplistic balls really. So these things can be "hurtful" - how terrible that one adult should say something hurtful to someone else. He must be stopped! Hang freedom of speech of course, adults must not be allowed to say nasty things to other adults.

As for the idea of equating 'choc ice' to the N-word, yes, of course, 'choc ice' has a long history in the oppression of black people by, er, other black people.

I agree Ferdinand should know better but I don't think it's racist to say what he did.

[ChesterDave]

So we agree, its not 'racist' its just an insult based on race?

[ChesterDave]

So no one is black and no one is white. We're all just people.

Yes, skin colour has no bearing on any aspect of the social world, it can all be ignored and any reference to it must be deemed bigoted.

You can't be loyal to your ethnic background but it's ok to be loyal to your teammate. Gotcha.

You seem to be consufusing the fact that Ferdinand was saying Cole should be loyal to his race simply because of his race with the fact Cole was being loyal to his team mate becauase it fitted with the evidence he was able to substantiate

Why is that so ****ing difficult for you ro comprehend?

[Neil Young]

Charmed, I'm sure.

[Vermilion]

Thing is, if Ashley Cole was white, Rio wouldn't have said what he did, he said it (or agreed with the comment) because Cole is black and to insult him, apparently for not being black enough, or for being too freindly with white people, that's what imo Cole was accused of really, and it's not really a nice thing, is it, and it almost infers that Cole should have sided with Ferdinand as he is also Black, which is dangerous, and i can only imagine the type of backing Ferdinand must have given to Evra behind the scenes.

[BootRoom]

Ok, so Cole is free to make whatever decision he wants. And Ferdinand isn't free to comment on it.

Right, that's clear.

Nobody is denying Ferdinand’s right to comment; just his right to use what could be construed as racist language, and it’s already been explained to you several times in this thread how the phrase in question – “choc ice” – can be construed as being racist in this context.

It's just simplistic balls really. So these things can be "hurtful" - how terrible that one adult should say something hurtful to someone else. He must be stopped! Hang freedom of speech of course, adults must not be allowed to say nasty things to other adults.

I think it’s you that is taking the simplistic approach by ignoring the context and implication of the phrase. “Choc ice”, “bounty bar” and “coconut” can all be construed as synonyms for the same concept in this context but you are simplistically dismissing the phase in question.

As for the idea of equating 'choc ice' to the N-word, yes, of course, 'choc ice' has a long history in the oppression of black people by, er, other black people.

I agree Ferdinand should know better but I don't think it's racist to say what he did.

Language is constantly evolving; just because new words or phrases appear, or old ones find new meaning, it doesn’t mean that they are automatically deemed to be less malicious than long standing words and phrases when the intent of their use is the same.

[rudedog]

Surely the term choc ice used in this context is considered a racial slur rather than being racist?

[McDermotX]

Surely the term choc ice used in this context is considered a racial slur rather than being racist?

It perpetuates the 'us v them' mentality that has its roots in racial profiling.

One of the most abhorrent areas I might add.

Rio, of course, will get no more than a slap on the wrist as it wasn't him making the accusation......just laughing along with it, which makes everything* OK.




*depending on what agenda someone wants to hide behind.