Racism in Football

[Neil Young]

So people are prejudiced on all sorts characteristics but that doesn't make it just or acceptable. And there's a word for reducing an individual to tears or contemplating suicide by calling them big-nosed or whatever - bullying.

The difference between bullying and racism (or sexism or homophobia) seems to me to be that the latter has a social aspect to it. There's no reason why big-nosed people couldn't be oppressed as a group but they haven't been to date.

I tend to think ginger is used as an outlet, the acceptable face of stereotyping, but it can't be equated with racism. I think it's a mistake to think in terms of polar opposites (like the myth it's harmless to be prejudiced against big-nosed people but not black people) but I don't see why we have to regard every instance of prejudice or stereotyping as the same.

[Red_Polo]

I'm not saying there isn't any context, I'm saying the context that exists for racism tends not to be there for remarks about appearance. That they are not as was suggested 'exactly the same', they differ enormously.

So if I accidentally spill a bit of some random's pint in the pub and they call me a big nose ****, I think they are a bit pissed up and ****tish. If they call me a p4ki ****, I think they are ****ing scum. The reason being because the two are not 'exactly the same', as they don't call upon the same form or scale of subjugation.

[Red_Polo]

So people are prejudiced on all sorts characteristics but that doesn't make it just or acceptable. And there's a word for reducing an individual to tears or contemplating suicide by calling them big-nosed or whatever - bullying.

The difference between bullying and racism (or sexism or homophobia) seems to me to be that the latter has a social aspect to it. There's no reason why big-nosed people couldn't be oppressed as a group but they haven't been to date.

I tend to think ginger is used as an outlet, the acceptable face of stereotyping, but it can't be equated with racism. I think it's a mistake to think in terms of polar opposites (like the myth it's harmless to be prejudiced against big-nosed people but not black people) but I don't see why we have to regard every instance of prejudice or stereotyping as the same.

Exact

They are different shades of the same ****.

[Norbs]

The exactly the same quote was in reply to your below post.



I think insulting people for how they are made and look, does do the same, on an individual basis..

I've had plenty of insults aimed at me about my looks and I can tell you there's no escape from it. Racism is unexcusable but (a fair but) it's delivered by a racist out of ignorance and is a sweeping remark which can be seen by the recipient as a weakness/fault of the person delivering it. When someone calls you big nose, and you look in the mirror and can see your big nose it has a huge long term effect on you. There's no sanctuary from it, I eventually underwent corrective surgery on my nose as it wore me down on a daily basis.

In summary, racism is worse but don't underestimate the effects of a personal insult

[Red_Polo]

Agree with that, Norbs.

[Tee]

I've had plenty of insults aimed at me about my looks and I can tell you there's no escape from it. Racism is unexcusable but (a fair but) it's delivered by a racist out of ignorance and is a sweeping remark which can be seen by the recipient as a weakness/fault of the person delivering it. When someone calls you big nose, and you look in the mirror and can see your big nose it has a huge long term effect on you. There's no sanctuary from it, I eventually underwent corrective surgery on my nose as it wore me down on a daily basis.

In summary, racism is worse but don't underestimate the effects of a personal insult

How long ago did you have the surgery? It seems not too long ago, which means you have suffered with comments for quite a fe wyears. Nasty horrible stuff personal insults, arguably worse than general casual racism.

[Vermilion]

I'm not saying there isn't any context, I'm saying the context that exists for racism tends not to be there for remarks about appearance. That they are not as was suggested 'exactly the same', they differ enormously.

So if I accidentally spill a bit of some random's pint in the pub and they call me a big nose ****, I think they are a bit pissed up and ****tish. If they call me a p4ki ****, I think they are ****ing scum. The reason being because the two are not 'exactly the same', as they don't call upon the same form or scale of subjugation.

I don't think i meant, or even said, they were exactly the same, i just said the effect on an individual person can be the same.

I think this is the point that has been missed. That is all i was saying, nothing more.

[Norbs]

How long ago did you have the surgery? It seems not too long ago, which means you have suffered with comments for quite a fe wyears. Nasty horrible stuff personal insults, arguably worse than general casual racism.

4 years ago mate. Funnily enough, last year on here someone commented on the size of my nose (post surgery) when I changed my avatar during the Movember thing. It's nothing compared to the issue of racism and I've never felt discriminated against. The person didn't really mean it as an insult but the comment was along the lines of 'is that your real nose '. I'll be seeing him on Saturday, his name rhymes with Higey

I come from a white working class family from a predominantly white area. As a young kid I was only aware of the way of thinking of those around me and so I am guilty of telling racist jokes in the past. I like to think that as I've grown up I've grown up and my attitude to racism is now firm. I've tried to educate my parents and tell them that it's ignorant, but it's a bit of a lost cause. Their opinions bear no malice and they would never insult someone to their face, not that this excuses it. Having step-children who come from a North African background has also helped to mold my thoughts against racism too. People can change, they can also admit faults in the past. The crime is to knowingly continue to be a racist when you know it's wrong. Some people honestly know no different though

[Vermilion]

I've had plenty of insults aimed at me about my looks and I can tell you there's no escape from it. Racism is unexcusable but (a fair but) it's delivered by a racist out of ignorance and is a sweeping remark which can be seen by the recipient as a weakness/fault of the person delivering it. When someone calls you big nose, and you look in the mirror and can see your big nose it has a huge long term effect on you. There's no sanctuary from it, I eventually underwent corrective surgery on my nose as it wore me down on a daily basis.

In summary, racism is worse but don't underestimate the effects of a personal insult

Sorry to hear about that time in your life.

You lived to fight another day though, but you were in a way forced, or made to feel that taking action with surgery was the way forward, just to live a normal life, or atleast to stop the insults.

Makes you wonder though, how it would have been if corrective surgery wasn't an option.

I think with age people learn to deal with such things, it's the youngsters that are at most risk, especially with the on line instant opinion and gossip we have these days, so many ways to get at and humiliate someone for how they look, without really seeing the damage being done to them.

[Kenneth]

Nicey's sat at the bar, says they all look a bit gay and they combine forces against him, it all goes a bit United Colours of Benetton. Nicey flies a rainbow flag outside the pub. Fin.

A rainbow flag, are you joking about nicey being gay and proud?

[Tee]

4 years ago mate. Funnily enough, last year on here someone commented on the size of my nose (post surgery) when I changed my avatar during the Movember thing. It's nothing compared to the issue of racism and I've never felt discriminated against. The person didn't really mean it as an insult but the comment was along the lines of 'is that your real nose '. I'll be seeing him on Saturday, his name rhymes with Higey

I come from a white working class family from a predominantly white area. As a young kid I was only aware of the way of thinking of those around me and so I am guilty of telling racist jokes in the past. I like to think that as I've grown up I've grown up and my attitude to racism is now firm. I've tried to educate my parents and tell them that it's ignorant, but it's a bit of a lost cause. Their opinions bear no malice and they would never insult someone to their face, not that this excuses it. Having step-children who come from a North African background has also helped to mold my thoughts against racism too. People can change, they can also admit faults in the past. The crime is to knowingly continue to be a racist when you know it's wrong. Some people honestly know no different though

There used to be a boy at my old secondary school who was always kind of racist, never called me anything in my face but would tell racist jokes all the time (and he wore Doctor Martens ). Anyway, I saw him after so many years a while back and he apologised for the way he used to be and said he was ashamed of his behaviour. I told him it was not his fault, just the environment he was in and the upbringing he probably had.

[Norbs]

There used to be a boy at my old secondary school who was always kind of racist, never called me anything in my face but would tell racist jokes all the time (and he wore Doctor Martens ). Anyway, I saw him after so many years a while back and he apologised for the way he used to be and said he was ashamed of his behaviour. I told him it was not his fault, just the environment he was in and the upbringing he probably had.

My primary school had one Chinese girl and 3 boys from a Jamaican family. That was literally it. Yee-Man was in my class and she was popular but I'm sure most of the boys did the stereotypical palms together shuffle and eyes thing. It was normal in the 70s. I've educated my kids not to be racist and they're not. My son however now works in the building industry and it's creeping it's way in to his life as he's working with old fellas. I've told him not only that there's more expected of him but also that he needs to be very aware that discrimination in the workplace could cost him his career hoping that the shock aspect stops him.

As for the Jamaican family, one of the lads went on to be a European champion boxer. I saw him two weeks ago (mentioned it on here) and introduced myself to him. He and his brothers were buggers and used to extort money from kids at school as well as bullying and fighting. No one knows what the circumstances were that led to that behaviour but it couldn't have been easy for them as they grew up.

You're not that much younger than me are you? What area did you grow up in and what was it like?

[Norbs]

Sorry to hear about that time in your life.

Like you say fella, imagine if it wasn't something I could pay to have altered. I like to look at if the shoe was on the other foot and think that my gripe is pretty insignificant really compared to the abuse that I've seen dished out to others when I was at school

[Tee]

My primary school had one Chinese girl and 3 boys from a Jamaican family. That was literally it. Yee-Man was in my class and she was popular but I'm sure most of the boys did the stereotypical palms together shuffle and eyes thing. It was normal in the 70s. I've educated my kids not to be racist and they're not. My son however now works in the building industry and it's creeping it's way in to his life as he's working with old fellas. I've told him not only that there's more expected of him but also that he needs to be very aware that discrimination in the workplace could cost him his career hoping that the shock aspect stops him.

As for the Jamaican family, one of the lads went on to be a European champion boxer. I saw him two weeks ago (mentioned it on here) and introduced myself to him. He and his brothers were buggers and used to extort money from kids at school as well as bullying and fighting. No one knows what the circumstances were that led to that behaviour but it couldn't have been easy for them as they grew up.

You're not that much younger than me are you? What area did you grow up in and what was it like?

PM...

[Red_Polo]

I don't think i meant, or even said, they were exactly the same, i just said the effect on an individual person can be the same.

I think this is the point that has been missed. That is all i was saying, nothing more.

OK, well then I don't think there's much if any difference in opinion - we're just talking cross-purposes.

Just to explain the light in which I viewed your initial post: I was arguing against the idea that all racism had ever done was hurt feelings. For someone in that setting to start draw equivalences with calling someone fat, I felt it was important to show the stark contrast. Your use of the words 'exactly the same' were read literally by me when perhaps you didn't intend it that way. Before you know it we're all out of our element.

Anyway, I feel like I'm dominating the thread a bit too much, so I'm going to join you in the dreaded football forum

A rainbow flag, are you joking about nicey being gay and proud?

Nah. I just meant he's fond of Zippy, George and Bungle.

Seriously though, I was suggesting he was an inclusive kind of fella. Nothing more, you big **** stirrer