Now then, for the love of god, please get the message rafa...

[Craig_H]

Why the **** are you arguing about this?

It seems crystal clear that right now, based on form, Crouch has to be preferred ahead of Kuyt...

We're arguing about it because some people seem to disagree with the 'crystal clear' point...for some reason

[Exiled_red]

That's all relative really. And in actual fact, i think you're wrong anyway, because (and i'm 90% sure of this), all of his goals last season came when he started. None when he came off the bench.

Regardless of whether he starts or comes off the bench though, he STILL has miles more goal threat than Kuyt does. It's indisputable mate.

Yeah I think you're right I remember hearing that too

[Skillz]

Crouch never had a run of games at the start of the year either.

As i said, if he'd played 1st team football on a regular basis, he'd surely be closing in on 15 goals by now. Evidence suggests he would. 18 in 26 starts is prolific.

I dont see how Crouch was 'piss poor' at the start of the season, when he barely had a look in. If he'd started 5-10 games in a row or something, then fair enough, that's a fair enough period of playing time to judge him on. But he didnt.

He was every time I saw him and I like him.

My main point is that I see Kuyt/Voronin playing a role in Rafa's game plan this year which unfortunately has backfired for him. By playing Crouch and Torres together from the start means a change in game plan that Rafa didn't want to make.

[Dhav]

That's all relative really. And in actual fact, i think you're wrong anyway, because (and i'm 90% sure of this), all of his goals last season came when he started. None when he came off the bench.

Regardless of whether he starts or comes off the bench though, he STILL has miles more goal threat than Kuyt does. It's indisputable mate.

Syd, as I've always said, last season's performances and stats are not relevant to this season. I think it is clear for all to see that on the whole when Crouch has started this season he has been poor and has been much more of a goal threat coming off the bench. I'm just trying to put your goals per minute ratios in to perspective.

But I accept that he is more of a goal threat than Kuyt and deserves to start. That is indisputable.

[Kev_81]

I would imagine opposition defenders would rather play against Kuyt than Crouch even though he is crap in the air

[Craig_H]

Syd, as I've always said, last season's performances and stats are not relevant to this season. I think it is clear for all to see that on the whole when Crouch has started this season he has been poor and has been much more of a goal threat coming off the bench. I'm just trying to put your goals per minute ratios in to perspective.

But I accept that he is more of a goal threat than Kuyt and deserves to start. That is indisputable.

To be fair mate, when all he has had this season is a bit part role (and no striker can score prolifically without actually playing on a regular basis), what else CAN you look at for a realistic and fair reflection of him?

Last season wasnt decades ago, it was just a year ago. It was against the same players in the majority of cases and he was prolific. It certainly is relevant, i dont see why it wouldnt be.

If he gets regular starting football, he scores goals. Unquestionably.

[tomasjj]

We're arguing about it because some people seem to disagree with the 'crystal clear' point...for some reason

Yeah, I see that.

I guess people are debating the total output that either player brings to the team as a whole - who do we win with, so to speak.

Crouch contributes by scoring more, Kuyt by teamwork that helps us win. Both are important, right now Crouch should be given the nod...strikers need to be a goal threat as well as working hard.

[Rich]

The thing is does Crouch actually not put the effort in?

Kuyt may well put more 'work' in (run) than any other player in the league - but if it's to the detriment of his decision-making, touch, and shooting ability then what's the point?!

Crouch scores goals, Kuyt doesn't. Therefore Crouch should play, Kuyt shouldn't.

[Skillz]

Yeah, I see that.

I guess people are debating the total output that either player brings to the team as a whole - who do we win with, so to speak.

Crouch contributes by scoring more, Kuyt by teamwork that helps us win. Both are important, right now Crouch should be given the nod...strikers need to be a goal threat as well as working hard.

Spot on. However, if DJS was in Rafa's position both Crouch and Kuyt would be out the door.

[tomasjj]

Spot on. However, if DJS was in Rafa's position both Crouch and Kuyt would be out the door.

And I agree with DJS on that.

[Craig_H]

Spot on. However, if DJS was in Rafa's position both Crouch and Kuyt would be out the door.

Eh? I'm a huge fan of Crouch and if i was in Rafa's shoes, i wouldnt be considering selling him to City or anyone else, unless they offered silly money.

Crouch is a top class attacking threat and i'd be playing him virtually every week if it was my decision.

Dunno where you get the idea that i'd want him out the door, i've been a fan of Crouch for a good while.

[Craig_H]

And I agree with DJS on that.

Dont listen to what Skillz says, i wouldnt be looking to sell Crouch. Even if we signed a Villa type of striker, i'd keep Crouch as 3rd choice.

He's a class act on and off the pitch.

[tomasjj]

Eh? I'm a huge fan of Crouch and if i was in Rafa's shoes, i wouldnt be considering selling him to City or anyone else, unless they offered silly money.

Crouch is a top class attacking threat and i'd be playing him virtually every week if it was my decision.

Dunno where you get the idea that i'd want him out the door, i've been a fan of Crouch for a good while.

Ah, we don't agree then.

Thank God!!

[Exiled_red]

The thing is does Crouch actually not put the effort in?

Kuyt may well put more 'work' in (run) than any other player in the league - but if it's to the detriment of his decision-making, touch, and shooting ability then what's the point?!

Crouch scores goals, Kuyt doesn't. Therefore Crouch should play, Kuyt shouldn't.

Just my view but I think strikers are there to score goals and anything else should come secondary to that. No matter how much other work you do for the team if you aren't scoring goals you aren't doing the main part of your job IMO

[Dhav]

To be fair mate, when all he has had this season is a bit part role (and no striker can score prolifically without actually playing on a regular basis), what else CAN you look at for a realistic and fair reflection of him?

Last season wasnt decades ago, it was just a year ago. It was against the same players in the majority of cases and he was prolific. It certainly is relevant, i dont see why it wouldnt be.

If he gets regular starting football, he scores goals. Unquestionably.

I agree that if he was starting more regularly, and managed to build a rhythm and momentum then his performances when he does start would be of a much higher calibre. However, on the other hand you could argue that for someone who has been used sparingly he hasn't seized his opportunity to force his way into the manager's plans when he has started.

I just dont think last season's form can be used as an indicator for this season's performances. I mean Kuyt scored something like 18 goals last season didn't he? Just becasue a player plays well one season it doesn't necessarily follow he'll reproduce it the following season. I think Crouch's attitude, commitment, work-rate have been noticeably different this season to last.