Now then, for the love of god, please get the message rafa...

[Shaggy]

Benitez on Kuyt today ...."But I don't think people are fair on Kuyt, he does a fantastic job for the team and the question is finding the balance between them. This game was good for Crouch and another game might be good for Kuyt"

Not sure he's getting the message

"a fantastic job for the team"

[Craig_H]

So kuyt will play on sunday and we'll effectively start with 10 men...

[Guest]

"a fantastic job for the team"

So kuyt will play on sunday and we'll effectively start with 10 men...

He was talking about his work rate. Don't think Rafa is daft not to acknowledge Kuyt's failures, but I think he wants to show some players that they need to up their level.

As good as Crouch is, he's been poor all season compared to last.

[Dhav]

I'm not sure I agree with this. I've seen Gerrard frequently coming deep this season, wanting the ball, trying to make things happen. Mostly they don't because when he looks up there's a massed midfield in front of him with no real space to play in, and it must be hugely frustrating for one of the most gifted footballers in the world that he's having to play frequently in a defensive midfield position because of Rafa's tactics.

The same is true of Crouch. He knows that no matter how much "running" he does, no matter how many goals he scores, no matter how many assists he makes, there's a good chance he'll be dropped next week for Kuyt's more defensive attributes in a 4-4-1-1 formation. Admittedly Crouch hasn't been in form lately, but prior to the West Ham game had scored 3 in 4 with an assist in the other. None of those had been league starts so for me he had every right to expect to start against the Hammers but he didn't even get a sniff from the bench.

Being a striker, or any other type of attacking player, at Liverpool must be hugely frustrating. You know that unless you're one of the manager's favourites there's absolutely no chance of you getting a good run in the team because Rafa rarely picks someone because of what they can do, but rather because of what he thinks they can do to stop the opponents. It's no surprise that in this sort of environment that players who like to contribute with things other than just effort find themselves becoming disillusioned with the manager.

Crouch was top scorer in Europe last season for us, one of the top in the entire Champions League, yet was binned out for a guy that hadn't scored in the competition. When you're faced with that kind of management it's no wonder the dressing room is split.

I understand what you're saying, but only partially agree with it.

I agree with you that Gerrard has been dropping deep very often this season looking to collect the ball, but I interpret it in a different way. I don't think Rafa is deliberately deploying him in that position, at least not all the time. I think it is either a case of Gerrard not trusting Mascherano with the ball, or it is a case of Gerrard being his usual ball-hungry self. Look at the Wigan game and how often he was dropping right on top of the midfield, even right on top of the wingers, to get the ball when clearly his role was to be bursting into the box from deep supporting Torres so that he couldn't be tracked by their defenders. I don't think Rafa has deliberately instructed him to play the Alonso role, I think Rafa knows Gerrard is incapable of that. It seems that Gerrard has other idead though, clearly he fancies himself as a playmaker.
Sadly I do not see Gerrard dropping deep looking for the ball as being extra effort or commitment on his behalf, more him trying to be the Hollywood player that he fancies himself as.

As for Crouch, I agree with what you've said previously about how he needs service from wide positions to flourish, and we either haven't been playing that way this season or have simply been incapable of doing so. But I still think his form of last season is irrelevant this season, something I have argued several times with DJS. Unfortuantely just because he did well last season doesn't mean he will do so this, and that has largely been borne out in the games he's played, where his effort seemingly hasn't matched his output of last season.

I don't accept either that it naturally follows from Rafa's rotation policy that the dressing room will be split. Everyone knows that these are his methods, and that they have proven highly successful in the past. You accept it or you leave. Simple. Crouch can chose to start 45 games for Man City if he prefers and fight it out for a Uefa CUp place, or he can play a part in 40 games for Liverpool and have the chance of winning trophies. His choice. He accepts the manager's methods or he moves on.

[Guest]

I understand what you're saying, but only partially agree with it.

I agree with you that Gerrard has been dropping deep very often this season looking to collect the ball, but I interpret it in a different way. I don't think Rafa is deliberately deploying him in that position, at least not all the time. I think it is either a case of Gerrard not trusting Mascherano with the ball, or it is a case of Gerrard being his usual ball-hungry self. Look at the Wigan game and how often he was dropping right on top of the midfield, even right on top of the wingers, to get the ball when clearly his role was to be bursting into the box from deep supporting Torres so that he couldn't be tracked by their defenders. I don't think Rafa has deliberately instructed him to play the Alonso role, I think Rafa knows Gerrard is incapable of that. It seems that Gerrard has other idead though, clearly he fancies himself as a playmaker.
Sadly I do not see Gerrard dropping deep looking for the ball as being extra effort or commitment on his behalf, more him trying to be the Hollywood player that he fancies himself as.

As for Crouch, I agree with what you've said previously about how he needs service from wide positions to flourish, and we either haven't been playing that way this season or have simply been incapable of doing so. But I still think his form of last season is irrelevant this season, something I have argued several times with DJS. Unfortuantely just because he did well last season doesn't mean he will do so this, and that has largely been borne out in the games he's played, where his effort seemingly hasn't matched his output of last season.

I don't accept either that it naturally follows from Rafa's rotation policy that the dressing room will be split. Everyone knows that these are his methods, and that they have proven highly successful in the past. You accept it or you leave. Simple. Crouch can chose to start 45 games for Man City if he prefers and fight it out for a Uefa CUp place, or he can play a part in 40 games for Liverpool and have the chance of winning trophies. His choice. He accepts the manager's methods or he moves on.

I've said that before. I think Gerrard annihilates player confidence during games, now through shouting at them but through his sheer will to do it all. He wants to play the killer ball, defend and attack, therefore becoming the fulcrum of the team.

Whilst its great having such a good player, he needs to play withing his role in the team and let others do their jobs. Maybe Kuyt dropping that deep is to cover Steven's arse when he goes forward all the time ?

It was noticeable away to Everton, where he was dropped in favor of Lucas and Kuyt scored two goals.

[tomasjj]

SG dropping deep also bereaves us from something we sorely need atm - which is movement off the ball, as SG is one of our most dynamic players.

[Craig_H]

He was talking about his work rate. Don't think Rafa is daft not to acknowledge Kuyt's failures, but I think he wants to show some players that they need to up their level.

As good as Crouch is, he's been poor all season compared to last.

Oh.
My.
Fecking.
Goodness.

Crouch has been three billion times better than kuyt, so regardless of how his form compares to his own form from last season, he should start.

If Crouch needs to 'up his level', Kuyt needs to find a totally new level, never mind upping it.

[dww]

"a fantastic job for the team"

You know that he is basically saying he works hard in a different way to make it sound better about Kuyt.

I have actually come to the conclusion that a large part of the problem for Kuyt has been the lack of people really making the effort to get around him and into dangerous areas when we attack. Gerrard, Benayoun, Babel, Kewell, whoever we play in midfield should be looking to drive into the box more. We all know that Kuyt isn't going to do anything staggering with the ball at his feet but his awareness of runners is good and with the right movement he would provide more for the team than he is at the minute. As it stands though his work rate is entirely wasted as he can neither build attacks from deep with his passing nor are there people giving him options for an easy offload.

His form in front of goal has been rightly criticised but I think if he had the confidence of other things going for him it would improve. As it is I think we have to go with Crouch up top as otherwise we look devoid of threat.

[bigfooty]

It was noticeable away to Everton, where he was dropped in favor of Lucas and Kuyt scored two goals.

Eh? Gerrard won one of the pens with a fantastic run, the sort of thing Kuyt will never be capable of in a million years. The other pen was won by Lucas with Kuyt involved but at that point Everton were pretty stretched as they were down to 10 men.

Kuyt drops deep into midfield because he's instructed to play that position, between the midfield and the striker. Only in our case with us normally playing two defensive central midfielders, or instructing them to play defensively, that means he has to come *really* deep.

[Guest]

Oh.
My.
Fecking.
Goodness.

Crouch has been three billion times better than kuyt, so regardless of how his form compares to his own form from last season, he should start.

If Crouch needs to 'up his level', Kuyt needs to find a totally new level, never mind upping it.

I would play Gerrard upfront with Torres instead of Crouch. Gerrard scores more goals than Crouch 'the striker' anyways. Crouch is in the same bracket as Kuyt for me, ie, he's not good enough and should be shipped out. It's not the odd goal here and there which will make him out as a 'great' attacking outlet.

Our most potent goalscoring outlets are Torres, Stevie, Yossi, Babel and Crouch is way off this pack. If someone needs to partner Torres it's Stevie, with Babel and Yossi left on the wings to keep the attacking threat alive on all fronts.

Just stop singling out Kuyt for our failings FFS, it's getting boring.

[bigfooty]

And don't get me wrong, I don't think Kuyt is that bad and I think he could provide a reasonable number of goals. But he needs to be playing alongside Crouch or another target man in a team with a decent, attacking midfield. That's how we got the best out of Kuyt last season, because he wasn't spending all the match running around closing down but actually found himself in and around the penalty box in dangerous positions.

Playing him alongside Torres only serves to leave Torres isolated and as Torres himself likes to move around a lot it leaves our attack without much of a focal point.

[AFII]

It will probably depend on how much Crouch plays for England if he starts against Chelsea or not. Kuyt will train the whole week so he will probably have a better chance to start because of that.

[Dhav]

I've said that before. I think Gerrard annihilates player confidence during games, now through shouting at them but through his sheer will to do it all. He wants to play the killer ball, defend and attack, therefore becoming the fulcrum of the team.

Whilst its great having such a good player, he needs to play withing his role in the team and let others do their jobs. Maybe Kuyt dropping that deep is to cover Steven's arse when he goes forward all the time ?

It was noticeable away to Everton, where he was dropped in favor of Lucas and Kuyt scored two goals.

Although Kuyt's first goal was a result of a seering run by Gerrard, I think the second one was attributable to Gerrard being substituted and Lucas coming on.

Look at Gerrard v Croatia for England, where his all action style was actually inhibiting England, giving the ball away with his constant Hollywood balls. Rafa pulled him off v Everton and we won. McClaren kept him on and England lost. Gerrard, as great as he is, can on occasion be a liability. Look at the home game v Everton a couple of seasons ago, he was sent off in the first 15 mins. That's ignoring the times when he is on top of players taking the ball from them, also expecting the ball to be passed to him when there are better options. Liek you say, he needs to play within the role Rafa has earmarked for him, not the role he wants for himself, otherwise the team wont function.

SG dropping deep also bereaves us from something we sorely need atm - which is movement off the ball, as SG is one of our most dynamic players.

[Skillz]

Oh.
My.
Fecking.
Goodness.

Crouch has been three billion times better than kuyt, so regardless of how his form compares to his own form from last season, he should start.

If Crouch needs to 'up his level', Kuyt needs to find a totally new level, never mind upping it.

That's wank revisionism. Kuyt has been doing his best and has been unable to turn his form around, not for lack of effort. Crouch has been underused to a degree but when he has had his chance he hasn't done anything to convince me until lately. Rafa showed the same faith to Crouch as he has for Kuyt.

Don't try to change history cos both have been ****e for most part, fact.

[Exiled_red]

He was talking about his work rate. Don't think Rafa is daft not to acknowledge Kuyt's failures, but I think he wants to show some players that they need to up their level.

As good as Crouch is, he's been poor all season compared to last.

To be fair to Crouch he's hardly had the chance to show what he can do he hardly starts games (until recently) and when he comes off bench he gets 20mins max.