Now then, for the love of god, please get the message rafa...

[bigfooty]

Hmm, I reckon he might go with Torres on his own, Gerrard in the middle alongside Alonso and Mascher, with Riise on the left (ahead of Aurelio) and Pennant on the right ahead of Finnan.

Rafa will not see this as a game we need to win, rather a game we don't want to lose, so I reckon it will be only one striker and that striker will be Torres.

[Exiled_red]

People seem to be saying that Crouch had a shocker until he scored, Crouch is the type of player who relies on service, if the midfield isn't giving him the supply he'l be anonamous, Kuyt will come back to pick up the ball, but when you need a striker in the box Crouch is there and Kuyt isn't.

[Radar]

It'd be beyond all sane logic if kuyt starts at Chelsea.

Thing is Rafa will play this game not to lose so he will probably only play one up front with 5 in the middle.

[Craig_H]

People seem to be saying that Crouch had a shocker until he scored, Crouch is the type of player who relies on service, if the midfield isn't giving him the supply he'l be anonamous, Kuyt will come back to pick up the ball, but when you need a striker in the box Crouch is there and Kuyt isn't.

[Craig_H]

Thing is Rafa will play this game not to lose so he will probably only play one up front with 5 in the middle.

It'd be ludicrous to do that. Might as well play 2 up front and try to win the game. If we adopted the right tactics and mentality, there's no reason why we cant win there.

[Lee]

If Crouch got a run from now until the end of the season, he'd bag 10 League goals I reckon. He also creates more for the team than Kuyt.

Rafa has to play Crouch more often - hasn't he got 4 in 5 and 12 in 20 or something like that now?!?

[Craig_H]

Sounds about right. He got 18 from 26 starts last season. Prolific. And yet he still isnt a regular

I wouldnt mind if it was David Villa or someone like that keeping Crouch out of the team. But no, it's deadly Dirk...

[Fiddy]

Game against the Chavs will be telling IMO.

If he picks Kuyt over Crouch again then it's a clear indication that he's lost the plot.

But I actually don't think he will.

Still I wouldn't bet on it.

I agree - if Kuyt plays over Crouch I will seriously wonder what the hell Rafa is thinking

[MrMichael]

It's quite obvious that most people are quite happy for a striker to produce little 'movement and linkup play' for most of the game, but pop up with a winning goal in the latter stages. Akis and chums apparently arent. Fair enough. Most people are a bit more clued up....and are.

No, thats not what people are saying DJ, stop trying to make an argument out of a discussion. Obviously people are more happy with a striker who scores than one who doesn't. Is it so completely unrealistic to ask for one who scores, and who has decent linkup play etc?

One of the most impressive tings about Crouch in his forst 18 months at the club was his all round play, ball control etc. How many times did we have to listen to a commentator exclaiming "he has got good touch for a big man". In fact, it was pretty much only his all round play that meant most fans (if by no means all, you still can't say l u r c h on here, lol) were happy to give him time, and in that time (his second season mostly) he added to that play with a reasonably decent goal return. However, that element of his play has not been so obvious, or impressive, since, and I know I've seen games this season where Crouch has looked like he has anything other than good touch.

Goals are of course, the most important thing. But Crouch is not a goal poacher with deadly eye, his career stats bear that out. I'd far rather he was playing, and scoring, but in your scenario of the team carrying any player for 89 minutes then being totally happy with them just because they then score, well, I'm not sure many fans would be completely satisfied. Otherwise everyone would want us to sign Inzaghi

I completely believe that Crouch should be starting ahead of Kuyt, whetever arguments there are about formations and systems. but that doesn't mean he's completely above criticism or concern for some of his performances this year when he has got a start.

[akjs123]

It's quite obvious that most people are quite happy for a striker to produce little 'movement and linkup play' for most of the game, but pop up with a winning goal in the latter stages. Akis and chums apparently arent. Fair enough. Most people are a bit more clued up....and are.

It is not like it was a one off performance. He has performed like that whenever he has been given the chance this season. Good movement allows the team to create the chances for him and with good link up play, he creates for others. For him to produce little 'movement and linkup play' means that for him to score, the goal had to be put on a plate for him for a bread and butter header. He scored a match winning goal but it was against the mighty sunderland with 2 away points all season.

I know when Chelsea and Inter Milan come up in the next 20 days, there is a much smaller chance of a goal being put on a plate for him so his starting doesnt fill me with confidence because he probably wont be doing his bit in creating goals. And even if he does start, it wont be on the basis of his good form, but because Kuyt has been even poorer.

Regarding "Akis and chums", Rafa, for one wouldnt have been happy with his performance knowing what he is capable of. But then again, you have called Rafa a fair few things havent you. I dont think any manager or player would be happy with a performance knowing they have performed well below what they are capable of but have scored a goal. And let alone footballers, people in any profession who dont sit on their achievements but strive to improve and better their best are the ones most likely to make it to the top of their professions.

[Craig_H]

No, thats not what people are saying DJ, stop trying to make an argument out of a discussion. Obviously people are more happy with a striker who scores than one who doesn't. Is it so completely unrealistic to ask for one who scores, and who has decent linkup play etc?

One of the most impressive tings about Crouch in his forst 18 months at the club was his all round play, ball control etc. How many times did we have to listen to a commentator exclaiming "he has got good touch for a big man". In fact, it was pretty much only his all round play that meant most fans (if by no means all, you still can't say l u r c h on here, lol) were happy to give him time, and in that time (his second season mostly) he added to that play with a reasonably decent goal return. However, that element of his play has not been so obvious, or impressive, since, and I know I've seen games this season where Crouch has looked like he has anything other than good touch.

Goals are of course, the most important thing. But Crouch is not a goal poacher with deadly eye, his career stats bear that out. I'd far rather he was playing, and scoring, but in your scenario of the team carrying any player for 89 minutes then being totally happy with them just because they then score, well, I'm not sure many fans would be completely satisfied. Otherwise everyone would want us to sign Inzaghi

I completely believe that Crouch should be starting ahead of Kuyt, whetever arguments there are about formations and systems. but that doesn't mean he's completely above criticism or concern for some of his performances this year when he has got a start.

In the context of a discussion about strikers and where our potential partners for Torres are Crouch, Kuyt and Voronin, we're not really in a position to be picky about a striker who has superb movement, links the play, sets up a couple of goals and then bags a hat trick.

Where did i suggest Crouch was completely above criticism? It's funny how you come up with this

thats not what people are saying DJ, stop trying to make an argument out of a discussion.

and then ironically start implying that i suggested Crouch was above criticism...

The crux of this is, we're talking about the strikers we DO have, sure we'd all love the world's best mythical striker who holds up the ball, links the player, has delicious movement and scores 50 goals a season, but back in the real world, we have Torres, Crouch, Kuyt and Voronin. So we're comparing the merits of those we DO have.

Kuyt has been playing game after game, posing no threat whatsoever and not even producing this elusive wonderful movement and linkup play that seems to have you lot drooling. Then Crouch, off the back of 3 goals in 4 starts, gets a game, doesnt light the night's sky up in glorious perfection, but contributes more goal threat in one game than Kuyt has in months, and there's people telling me he did nothing til he scored, as if the alternative option had been spending the last 10 games dominating the game.
It's laughable.

The fact is, in the last 5 or 6 games, we've been playing with ONE goal threat up front and absolutely zero from his strike partner, so when Crouch comes in, offers apparently poor movement and linkup play, but then scores the winner and sets up the 2nd to kill the game...forgive me for remembering how little Kuyt's been offering and popping the proverbial champagne corks when we finally have a striker alongside torres whose contributions have a direct impact on us scoring goals and winning games.

[Craig_H]

It is not like it was a one off performance. He has performed like that whenever he has been given the chance this season. Good movement allows the team to create the chances for him and with good link up play, he creates for others. For him to produce little 'movement and linkup play' means that for him to score, the goal had to be put on a plate for him for a bread and butter header. He scored a match winning goal but it was against the mighty sunderland with 2 away points all season.

I know when Chelsea and Inter Milan come up in the next 20 days, there is a much smaller chance of a goal being put on a plate for him so his starting doesnt fill me with confidence because he probably wont be doing his bit in creating goals. And even if he does start, it wont be on the basis of his good form, but because Kuyt has been even poorer.

Regarding "Akis and chums", Rafa, for one wouldnt have been happy with his performance knowing what he is capable of. But then again, you have called Rafa a fair few things havent you. I dont think any manager or player would be happy with a performance knowing they have performed well below what they are capable of but have scored a goal. And let alone footballers, people in any profession who dont sit on their achievements but strive to improve and better their best are the ones most likely to make it to the top of their professions.

Well let's put it this way, Kuyt's apparently got good movement and link up play, but when he starts, he looks about as threatening as a stuffed toy.

It leaves us with half a strikeforce than poses a threat and half that may as well be invisible.

So for all the lack of movement and linkup play that Crouch apparently provides, it's odd how high a win percentage we seem to have when he starts ahead of Kuyt, isnt it?

Take what you like from it, if you prefer the brand of movement and linkup play that Kuyt has perfected, which ultimately leads to us rarely scoring or winning, then wonderful.

I'll be radical and opt for the striker who actually puts the ball into the net, thus making a direct contribution to us winning games.

As for Rafa, yes i'm sure he'll be furious that Crouch had a direct input into 66% of our goals in the Sunderland game.

Just to clarify, are you *actually* saying you'd rather see kuyt play against Chelsea and Inter? You accuse Crouch of performing below what he is capable of (funnily enough, that applies to the whole team recently, so it seems that by singling out Crouch, you've got some personal agenda against him). But sticking to this 'below what he is capable of' malarky, are you actually trying to suggest (with a straight face) that KUYT has been producing performances to a level which he is capable of?
Seriously, is that what you're saying?

When push comes to shove, whether or not Crouch (4 goals in 5 starts recently) produces the kind of movement and linkup play that impresses you or not, he's still infinitely more threatening than Kuyt and i'd happily pick Crouchy even if he had one leg, ahead of Kuyt, who frankly, may as well not be there.

[Roboklopp]

With you all the way on thissun Syd.

[Craig_H]

With you all the way on thissun Syd.

Most people with a bit of common sense are. Unless they're just disagreeing because it's me saying it...that sometimes happens

[akjs123]

Well let's put it this way, Kuyt's apparently got good movement and link up play, but when he starts, he looks about as threatening as a stuffed toy.

It leaves us with half a strikeforce than poses a threat and half that may as well be invisible.

So for all the lack of movement and linkup play that Crouch apparently provides, it's odd how high a win percentage we seem to have when he starts ahead of Kuyt, isnt it?

Take what you like from it, if you prefer the brand of movement and linkup play that Kuyt has perfected, which ultimately leads to us rarely scoring or winning, then wonderful.

I'll be radical and opt for the striker who actually puts the ball into the net, thus making a direct contribution to us winning games.

As for Rafa, yes i'm sure he'll be furious that Crouch had a direct input into 66% of our goals in the Sunderland game.

Just to clarify, are you *actually* saying you'd rather see kuyt play against Chelsea and Inter? You accuse Crouch of performing below what he is capable of (funnily enough, that applies to the whole team recently, so it seems that by singling out Crouch, you've got some personal agenda against him). But sticking to this 'below what he is capable of' malarky, are you actually trying to suggest (with a straight face) that KUYT has been producing performances to a level which he is capable of?
Seriously, is that what you're saying?

When push comes to shove, whether or not Crouch (4 goals in 5 starts recently) produces the kind of movement and linkup play that impresses you or not, he's still infinitely more threatening than Kuyt and i'd happily pick Crouchy even if he had one leg, ahead of Kuyt, who frankly, may as well not be there.

I'm not saying Kuyt should start instead of Crouch. Infact I havent even brought Kuyt into the arguement at any point. You said that Crouch had a good game because he scored and created one goal. I am saying that despite he created and scored one goal, his performance in terms of link up play, something which has been his outstanding feature, was poor in comparision to what he has previously shown and has been poor all season. And he wont find it so easy to score and create one against Chelsea or Inter. So there is massive room for improvement despite the goal and assist.