Now then, for the love of god, please get the message rafa...

[Craig_H]

Syd, I myself have said the lad is not good enough. But the criticism he gets is unfair. This man has something, that currently pretty much the whole of the rest of the squad lacks, and it's something I value pretty much above all else:- INTEGRITY. The rest of those ****s are going out there and conning the match going public with their half-hearted efforts, and one of the main culprits is Gerrard. Kuyt is at least giving his all.

I'll say it here, people like Gerrard should be looking at people like Kuyt to try and pick things up about the game more than the other way around.

I dont pay good money to see half-hearted effort every week. But that's what I'm getting.

I hear you and you're not wrong, but ultimately, i'd take a 'half arsed' performance that contains a bit of quality to win us the game, as opposed to hard graft that ultimately doesnt produce the goods where it matters.

[Dhav]

I hear you and you're not wrong, but ultimately, i'd take a 'half arsed' performance that contains a bit of quality to win us the game, as opposed to hard graft that ultimately doesnt produce the goods where it matters.

That's your prerogative, although my view is slightly different. If we accept that effort and commitment is the very least we, as the paying match-going public can expect from our players, what can you sya about people who are no tmeeting the bear minimum required? As far as I'm concerned, Kuyt for his effort and commitment alone is reaching the bear minimum required, the rest of them are falling far short of that. IMO these people are far more deserving of criticism.

[Craig_H]

That's your prerogative, although my view is slightly different. If we accept that effort and commitment is the very least we, as the paying match-going public can expect from our players, what can you sya about people who are no tmeeting the bear minimum required? As far as I'm concerned, Kuyt for his effort and commitment alone is reaching the bear minimum required, the rest of them are falling far short of that. IMO these people are far more deserving of criticism.

What use is the effort alone, when he is (as you've admitted) not good enough?

Our objective is to win. If someone can win us games in a half arsed manner, i'd prefer that than someone who gives his all but isnt good enough.

Having said that, the fact is that Gerrard and the others DO usually give their all.

[dww]

That's your prerogative, although my view is slightly different. If we accept that effort and commitment is the very least we, as the paying match-going public can expect from our players, what can you sya about people who are no tmeeting the bear minimum required? As far as I'm concerned, Kuyt for his effort and commitment alone is reaching the bear minimum required, the rest of them are falling far short of that. IMO these people are far more deserving of criticism.

There is an element though where people have looked like they are trying but it just doesn't come off. For me it looks like that a lot with Torres - he just doesn't seem to have the joie de vivre he showed when he first came but he does seem to still be trying things to me. It is easy to identify the effort put in by the likes of Kuyt as the physicality of it is obvious.

For me a lot of the players seem to be putting in the effort but without the conviction to back it up. It looks very much like a confidence thing. However some players are expected to be leaders and push through that - such as Gerrard and they patently have failed to do it of late and have failed to inspire others to do it. Whether the problem lies with individuals, the team, the manager or even to some degree our expectations is hard to disentangle.

I think that at the end of the day the fact is that Kuyt's hard work is not benefiting the team as a whole at the minute as people are not there to take advantage of it and he isn't using it to score himself. As a consequence despite the endearing effort he puts in he has to be regarded as behind Crouch in the pecking order as even if he puts in less effort and in some ways may not suit the way we want to play he does make the team more effective at the present time.

[Craig_H]

There is an element though where people have looked like they are trying but it just doesn't come off. For me it looks like that a lot with Torres - he just doesn't seem to have the joie de vivre he showed when he first came but he does seem to still be trying things to me. It is easy to identify the effort put in by the likes of Kuyt as the physicality of it is obvious.

For me a lot of the players seem to be putting in the effort but without the conviction to back it up. It looks very much like a confidence thing. However some players are expected to be leaders and push through that - such as Gerrard and they patently have failed to do it of late and have failed to inspire others to do it. Whether the problem lies with individuals, the team, the manager or even to some degree our expectations is hard to disentangle.

I think that at the end of the day the fact is that Kuyt's hard work is not benefiting the team as a whole at the minute as people are not there to take advantage of it and he isn't using it to score himself. As a consequence despite the endearing effort he puts in he has to be regarded as behind Crouch in the pecking order as even if he puts in less effort and in some ways may not suit the way we want to play he does make the team more effective at the present time.

Good post.

[Dhav]

What use is the effort alone, when he is (as you've admitted) not good enough?

Our objective is to win. If someone can win us games in a half arsed manner, i'd prefer that than someone who gives his all but isnt good enough.

Having said that, the fact is that Gerrard and the others DO usually give their all.

Well as a paying match goer, I reserve the right to criticise and lambast someone who is putting in less than 100%, before I criticise someone who is.

Kuyt has more character and integrity than most of the rest of those spineless ****houses put together, and for that alone he has my respect, if not my confidence.

[paulcooper4]

Kuyt has more character and integrity than most of the rest of those spineless ****houses put together, and for that alone he has my respect, if not my confidence.

[Craig_H]

Well as a paying match goer, I reserve the right to criticise and lambast someone who is putting in less than 100%, before I criticise someone who is.

Kuyt has more character and integrity than most of the rest of those spineless ****houses put together, and for that alone he has my respect, if not my confidence.

You're dodging the question mate.

What use is effort, without quality? I'll take the quality any day of the week. The effort thing can be improved upon, but if you lack the ability, you cant do anything about that.

[paulcooper4]

You're dodging the question mate.

What use is effort, without quality? I'll take the quality any day of the week. The effort thing can be improved upon, but if you lack the ability, you cant do anything about that.

you borin CUNT!!

kinell fella, you go on, and on, and on, and on.... are you like this in real life?

[Craig_H]

Coops...go and stick your head down the bog mate. It'll be more entertaining for all of us...and you.

[merv]

Well as a paying match goer, I reserve the right to criticise and lambast someone who is putting in less than 100%, before I criticise someone who is.

Kuyt has more character and integrity than most of the rest of those spineless ****houses put together, and for that alone he has my respect, if not my confidence.

WTF is going on here with all this integrity and honesty bull****????????????
Liverpool fc are a football club plain and simple their "business" is winning football matches... the managers job is to pick 11 of his best players to go out on the pitch once a week to win a football match!! if one of the 11 ("Kuyt") isn't doing the job he was purchased (hired) for (which is to score goals) then it's the duty of the manager (rafa) to replace him on said pitch with somebody better equipped to do the job (ie crouch) end of story!! if for some reason the inept player (kuyt) fails to deliver (which he so spectacularly has) and continues to be chosen ahead of the better qualified (crouch) then the only person that is at fault is the manager (Rafa Benitez)

And i must state that i am (was) a big defender of the current LFC manager!

[paulcooper4]

Coops...go and stick your head down the bog mate. It'll be more entertaining for all of us...and you.

but...i thought you liked me syd...syd please.....

[Red_hot]

The effort argument is not a strong enough one, on his current form, to make or support a case for him being in the team ahead of Crouch. I accept that.

But as far as his effort and commitment goes, it, and he are deserving of far more respect than what Kuyt gets from the fans both on these boards and in the stands at matches. As poor as he has been lately (and he is a far better player than his current form suggests, although still not good enough to be a long term partner for Torres IMO) he puts in far more effort, far more running, far more determined play than Gerrard or Crouch are at the moment. When the chips are down what does Kuyt do? He runs his socks off, chases every ball, he's every where. what does Gerrard do when the chips are down? He skulks arounds, moaning, getting on other players backs.

What does Kuyt get for his effort, for his whole-hearted running? Groaning. Fans getting on his back when a player taller than him outjumps him. Being called a Dutch marathon runner

People will always trot out the old argument of how it's so easy to put effort in and run all day, anyone playing for Liverpool would do the same. Well I tell you what, too few of our players are doing it, and the one who does is the one who gets criticised the most. And I for one think it's a disgrace.

[bigfooty]

As poor as he has been lately (and he is a far better player than his current form suggests, although still not good enough to be a long term partner for Torres IMO) he puts in far more effort, far more running, far more determined play than Gerrard or Crouch are at the moment. When the chips are down what does Kuyt do? He runs his socks off, chases every ball, he's every where. what does Gerrard do when the chips are down? He skulks arounds, moaning, getting on other players backs.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I've seen Gerrard frequently coming deep this season, wanting the ball, trying to make things happen. Mostly they don't because when he looks up there's a massed midfield in front of him with no real space to play in, and it must be hugely frustrating for one of the most gifted footballers in the world that he's having to play frequently in a defensive midfield position because of Rafa's tactics.

The same is true of Crouch. He knows that no matter how much "running" he does, no matter how many goals he scores, no matter how many assists he makes, there's a good chance he'll be dropped next week for Kuyt's more defensive attributes in a 4-4-1-1 formation. Admittedly Crouch hasn't been in form lately, but prior to the West Ham game had scored 3 in 4 with an assist in the other. None of those had been league starts so for me he had every right to expect to start against the Hammers but he didn't even get a sniff from the bench.

Being a striker, or any other type of attacking player, at Liverpool must be hugely frustrating. You know that unless you're one of the manager's favourites there's absolutely no chance of you getting a good run in the team because Rafa rarely picks someone because of what they can do, but rather because of what he thinks they can do to stop the opponents. It's no surprise that in this sort of environment that players who like to contribute with things other than just effort find themselves becoming disillusioned with the manager.

Crouch was top scorer in Europe last season for us, one of the top in the entire Champions League, yet was binned out for a guy that hadn't scored in the competition. When you're faced with that kind of management it's no wonder the dressing room is split.

[Kev_81]

Benitez on Kuyt today ...."But I don't think people are fair on Kuyt, he does a fantastic job for the team and the question is finding the balance between them. This game was good for Crouch and another game might be good for Kuyt"

Not sure he's getting the message