I don't understand Benitez, Capello and the like

[Joe Le Toff]

I agree we shouldnt have everyone back for corners

Especially when its OUR corner

[Laz]

Anyone else playing "Rashid quote bingo" in this thread as well? I've marked off "NET spend", "Alehouse football" and "Same under Houllier" already, I just need one more for a line.

I am honestly fed up of the same old points being regurgitated in every thread lately. If you are not going to build on a solid defence what are you going to build on?

[Rashid]

This is a great post from TLW by 05 Milan, and I think it is apt. I don't think personnel wise we are a millions miles from United. It's in how we play.

Who were these lightning quick wide players in Uniteds team yesterday? Fletcher? Evra has some pace, but he was playing as a make-shift right winger.

I guess you must mean the pace from Rooney and Tevez, and perhaps Anderson to a degree. Well they're not exactly super-quick either?

The pace in Uniteds attacks yesterday came from speed of thought, movement and skill. Three departments where they have been streets ahead of us for many, many years now.

Giggs played a major part for them last season, yet he didn't even break into a sprint as far as I can remember.

We have pace in attack; Torres, Keane, Babel and Gerrard. For our part it's more important to improve ball-retention and movement, as well as bring the full-backs into attack like the mancs do so superbly with Evra and to a lesser extent, Brown. How many times have they worked that ball in between the backline to Evra making a run inside behind the rb? It's so effective it's scary, and they look for him each time the ball is out there. His timing of the runs is also spot-on.

[Darth Marty]

it is a good post and id have to agree. Ronaldo and evra aside they arent lightening quick. Our main problem there is that Fergie does play attacking football and Rafa does not. Therefore until that changes they will rip teams to shreds and possibly lose 1 or 2 games where we will grind results out and draw far more games. Its all in the footballing philosophy for me and as time goes on im not entirely sure I like Rafas philosophy.

[BFG]

Hang on the Mancs we're pretty dire yesterday. Yes they kept the ball well but hardly had a shot apart from a fluky goal. How is keeping the ball going backwards and sideways entertaining football?

If Pompey hadn't played so ****e then Utd would have got a point at best. Our game against Boro was a much more open and exciting game of football.

[dww]

There is a lot to be said for the interpretation that we don't lack pace so much as guile. I have for a while said that it is movement rather than width per se that is the problem for us. I do however think that a large part of that has been down to the stability United have had in personnel which has been built from having a genuinely strong blend of players for a long while and therefore always evolving from a position of strength.

There have been no teams in the league who have sustained an improvement of more than a few positions for a number of years (Chelsea excepted perhaps but they had bucket loads of cash to help) and we are asking Rafa to climb the most difficult steps to the top of the league.

[Rashid]

it is a good post and id have to agree. Ronaldo and evra aside they arent lightening quick. Our main problem there is that Fergie does play attacking football and Rafa does not. Therefore until that changes they will rip teams to shreds and possibly lose 1 or 2 games where we will grind results out and draw far more games. Its all in the footballing philosophy for me and as time goes on im not entirely sure I like Rafas philosophy.

Where there is 3 points for a win - they will always get loads of points. 2 seasons ago we finished only a point behind them and people say we overachieved and they massively underachieved - either that or we have fallen away badly since then given we have spent more money.

Back to my point though, unless you have a world class player in every position and you trillions to spend like Chelsea, fortune favours the brave when it comes to the premiership trophy.

[Rashid]

There is a lot to be said for the interpretation that we don't lack pace so much as guile. I have for a while said that it is movement rather than width per se that is the problem for us. I do however think that a large part of that has been down to the stability United have had in personnel which has been built from having a genuinely strong blend of players for a long while and therefore always evolving from a position of strength.

There have been no teams in the league who have sustained an improvement of more than a few positions for a number of years (Chelsea excepted perhaps but they had bucket loads of cash to help) and we are asking Rafa to climb the most difficult steps to the top of the league.

The strength of Ferguson is that he can build new teams... in the past 4 years (since Rafa has arrived) he has signed he following players as new players in the team.. VDV, Nani, Tevez, Anderson, Hargreaves, Carrick, Evra, Vidic, and soon to be Berbatov. That is more or less a whole new team but they still play the same and the results are even better - they have won two leagues whilst intergrating these players too - throwing out the window the "2 years to settled" excuse we all use.

It's all about philosophy and theirs is to express themselves, players as humans will find it easier to do that than to conform to rigid tactics hence why they settle quicker. e.g. a wide player like Nani will find it easier at United because he won't be expected to track back and thus allowing him to concentrate on what he does best.

[dww]

Valencia played good football, not majestic and it sort of proves the notion that Rafa is a good coach not a great builder of teams. That Valencia side was Hector Cuper's team. Rafa has won the biggest trophies in his career with mainly Houller's and Cuper's teams - making them into winners. He is a great coach - my problem with his coaching is that it focusses on a stale brand of football and every nuetral will admit that.

What did we win last season Fredo that Wenger didn't?

I am behind my team, I support LFC not Rafa FC.

The problem with that analysis is that you say that Valencia played good football and that Rafa is a good coach before criticising Rafa for aiming for a stale brand of football. I think that is a contradiction and part of what makes this argument feel so repetitive and pointless.

It is quite conceivable that Rafa is a good coach and that somehow he won't make it in the PL or specifically with us as a great one for some reason. However I think you go to far in trying to take away from him genuine achievements and trying to play down the quality of Rafa's work. No one minds you criticising Rafa but they do have a problem with you picking faults when it is clear that they are only perceptible to those with an established bias.

It is clear to most people that Rafa has a very different philosophy to Wenger and we won't be seen playing Wengers brand of currently unable to win the league football. i would say that the way Rafa wants to play seems very similar to that which United have established in the last year and a half. the big difference being the quality of attacking players and the times with which those players have had to blend/grow together. It is definitely arguable though that Rafa vears more to the United that played Barca last year than the United that played Roma the year before. However we have seen a lot of matches in the last few years to my mind which we have dominated and played very good football. The problem has been doing that consistently.

Other teams supporters perceptions (i.e. what you might call neutrals) are normally guided by the narrative of a teams season put out in the media and the odd games that they watch of us. From that point of view the fact we have only on occasion stepped up means that they will brand Rafa as aiming for stultifying, negative football. I think it is fairer though to say that Rafa bases his strategy on possession and a tight defense and wishes to build on that to produce good football. For me that has been the basis of United and Chelsea's success in recent seasons.

I would also say that last season Arsenal struggled to put together 90 minutes of good football. People went over board with their praise when in fact they were, while an excellent team, equally as flawed as we were in many respects.

[Rashid]

dww - great post mate but I won't take away from Rafa's achievement - he made Houllier's and Cuper's team of duds and nearly men respectively into massive winners almost overnight. He has won as much as anyone over the past 5 years... I just hate the style of play and caution.

IMO we play nothing like United and are certainly are not as brave as them, nor do we have the same movement. They have rebuilt nearly a whole team since Rafa has been here too - they have many new players snce Rafa arrived - VDV, Vidic, Evra, Nani, Tevez, Hargreaves, Carrick, to name but a few... they all seem to come in, settle over a few games and then not look back.

I think the biggest difference between, Wenger and Ferguson, and then Rafa is that the former two allow their players to express themselves and their attackers and wide players are not forced to defend as much as our are.

[dww]

The strength of Ferguson is that he can build new teams... in the past 4 years (since Rafa has arrived) he has signed he following players as new players in the team.. VDV, Nani, Tevez, Anderson, Hargreaves, Carrick, Evra, Vidic, and soon to be Berbatov. That is more or less a whole new team but they still play the same and the results are even better - they have won two leagues whilst intergrating these players too - throwing out the window the "2 years to settled" excuse we all use.

It's all about philosophy and theirs is to express themselves, players as humans will find it easier to do that than to conform to rigid tactics hence why they settle quicker. e.g. a wide player like Nani will find it easier at United because he won't be expected to track back and thus allowing him to concentrate on what he does best.

I always thought that 2 years was a period used because not all signings work out straight away (Hleb is the obvious example but Vidic took half a season to settle). No one uses that excuse all of the time but sometimes players do develop. Everyone expects Keane to be good this season and expected Mascher and Torres to hit the ground running. It is not always the same for each player and as many people (including United fans) give Nani stick as like him even if I think he has developed very well.

I fundamentally disagree with the idea that expression is what makes United easier to slot into as a team. I think the fact that they have a set shape for the defense and a well established pattern of play which is actually surprisingly rigid. They are allowed to improvise within the framework but that is generally allowed by the hard work of people like Rooney. I think overall squad stability borne of a high quality starting point is what has made integration easy for most of those players.

Players like Nani found it easier to integrate because they could be played as and when it was deemed fit rather than having to form the core of a new team. The thing is that players like Rooney and Tevez do fight for the ball, hold shape and work defensively. the fact that one winger rather than a striker in our case is given the freedom in their system indicates to me that you are barking up the wrong tree to a degree.

[Laz]

You can't compare those few transfers over a few years to the almost complete revamp of the Liverpool squad.

ManU still have Neville, Brown, Fletcher, Scholes, Giggs, O'Shea, Ferdinand, Ronaldo, Saha and Rooney all from 2004/05 season or before.

[Exiled_red]

The strength of Ferguson is that he can build new teams... in the past 4 years (since Rafa has arrived) he has signed he following players as new players in the team.. VDV, Nani, Tevez, Anderson, Hargreaves, Carrick, Evra, Vidic, and soon to be Berbatov. That is more or less a whole new team but they still play the same and the results are even better - they have won two leagues whilst intergrating these players too - throwing out the window the "2 years to settled" excuse we all use.

It's all about philosophy and theirs is to express themselves, players as humans will find it easier to do that than to conform to rigid tactics hence why they settle quicker. e.g. a wide player like Nani will find it easier at United because he won't be expected to track back and thus allowing him to concentrate on what he does best.

Of those only VDV, Tevez, Vidic and Evra plus one of Carrick/Hargreaves play regularly, that means he has changed on average 1 or 2 players per year so the team hardly changing.

[Skillz]

The problem with that analysis is that you say that Valencia played good football and that Rafa is a good coach before criticising Rafa for aiming for a stale brand of football. I think that is a contradiction and part of what makes this argument feel so repetitive and pointless.

It is quite conceivable that Rafa is a good coach and that somehow he won't make it in the PL or specifically with us as a great one for some reason. However I think you go to far in trying to take away from him genuine achievements and trying to play down the quality of Rafa's work. No one minds you criticising Rafa but they do have a problem with you picking faults when it is clear that they are only perceptible to those with an established bias.

It is clear to most people that Rafa has a very different philosophy to Wenger and we won't be seen playing Wengers brand of currently unable to win the league football. i would say that the way Rafa wants to play seems very similar to that which United have established in the last year and a half. the big difference being the quality of attacking players and the times with which those players have had to blend/grow together. It is definitely arguable though that Rafa vears more to the United that played Barca last year than the United that played Roma the year before. However we have seen a lot of matches in the last few years to my mind which we have dominated and played very good football. The problem has been doing that consistently.

Other teams supporters perceptions (i.e. what you might call neutrals) are normally guided by the narrative of a teams season put out in the media and the odd games that they watch of us. From that point of view the fact we have only on occasion stepped up means that they will brand Rafa as aiming for stultifying, negative football. I think it is fairer though to say that Rafa bases his strategy on possession and a tight defense and wishes to build on that to produce good football. For me that has been the basis of United and Chelsea's success in recent seasons.

I would also say that last season Arsenal struggled to put together 90 minutes of good football. People went over board with their praise when in fact they were, while an excellent team, equally as flawed as we were in many respects.

Great post. If we get to see Rafa's Valencia, or even better perhaps, noone will complain. Those teams could play and we will start to see that this season IMO.

[Rashid]

Rafa's Valencia had an out and out winger in Vicente, and a world class play maker behind the striker in Aimar - neither type of player is currently at Anfield or has been bought by Rafa. I don't think the Valencia model has been replicated here, and more to the point, the team Rafa had at Valencia was not his team - but he was the man that made them into winners. Rafa is more of a coach than a team builder IMO.