Hammill - the return of the prodigal son?

[Woobus]

Hold on, did I say that? I said these players deserve a chance to show what they can do, rather than buying average players to fill that position. And I actually said that we'd have been better buying a right winger than a striker because that is an area we lacked. Football is a squad game no? And I feel that Hammill, Anderson and El Zhar could have done just as good a job as Nunez, Pennant and Kuyt in that position.

And I never called them great either

Lol in other posts you wanted us to spend 20 million on a right sided player, and I agree that players like Hamill would be a great squad filler. So what is your point?
Rafa was wrong to buy a premiership forward instead of spending his cash on a right midfield player who you believe the position is filled ny the kids we have?

Do you think we have enough depth in rigth midfield with Kuty, Hamill and El Zjar?

[Woobus]

Hold on, did I say that? I said these players deserve a chance to show what they can do, rather than buying average players to fill that position. And I actually said that we'd have been better buying a right winger than a striker because that is an area we lacked. Football is a squad game no? And I feel that Hammill, Anderson and El Zhar could have done just as good a job as Nunez, Pennant and Kuyt in that position.

And I never called them great either

Was a wee bit drunk the last reply.

IN the Keane thread you wanted Nemeth to have a chance and Rafa should have spent 20 million on a right winger

The next time you want Rafa to use Hamill and El Zhar, so what do you really want Rafa to do. Let Nemeth have a chance and spend the money on a right side player, or ruin there chance by buying a 20 million right sided player and forgetting about them?

[Sarb]

Lol in other posts you wanted us to spend 20 million on a right sided player, and I agree that players like Hamill would be a great squad filler. So what is your point?
Rafa was wrong to buy a premiership forward instead of spending his cash on a right midfield player who you believe the position is filled ny the kids we have?

Do you think we have enough depth in rigth midfield with Kuty, Hamill and El Zjar?

Well maybe instead of buying the likes of Nunez, Pennant, playing Kuyt on the right wing, had we given one of our youngsters a chance in the first team to play on the wing, we would not now be in a position where we need a solution on the right wing and one of these kids could have made the spot their own.

None of the youngsters are going to come in and immediately solve the problem are they? They've been farmed out here there and everywhere under our bizarre policy of buying up loads of young talent then ruining their careers.

And I also didn't say spend 20m on a right winger. What I actually said was that we could have SAVED the 20m we spent on Keane and bought a winger instead. Bit of a difference.

Rafa was wrong to spend 20m on Keane yes. Do we have enough depth on the right? No. Kuyt isn't a winger. El Zhar is rarely given a chance. Hammill isn't even here. Pennant is nowhere to be seen. Quite a damning indictment of our transfer policy where we've spent £22m on two 'forwards' and tried to play them on the wing when we've had plenty of young players who weren't given an opportunity

[Sarb]

Was a wee bit drunk the last reply.

IN the Keane thread you wanted Nemeth to have a chance and Rafa should have spent 20 million on a right winger

The next time you want Rafa to use Hamill and El Zhar, so what do you really want Rafa to do. Let Nemeth have a chance and spend the money on a right side player, or ruin there chance by buying a 20 million right sided player and forgetting about them?

See response below. I said he would have been better off spending money on a right winger. Not 20m on one. Hammill and Anderson should have been given an opportunity a long while ago. They're in no position to come in at the moment and take the right wing role. They should however be bought in and given some game time for Liverpool. For that reason we need a right winger with these guys also given an opportunity to fight for the place rather than being shipped out on loan

[Guest]

joke!

Just to reply to the bit where you state that we are playing **** and that you're going to Anfield week in week out, well, I watch every bloody match on the TV even if it's 3 o'clock in the morning. Don't ever say that I don't watch the games. And we have been ****ing winning despite not playing well.

People booing is a disgrace. They should be happy we're top of the ****ing league instead of whining and moaning. Years of non success has made our fans worst. We're supposed to be with the side not against them. Our job is to support not to moan.

[Guest]

I can understand people moaning but when you're in the stadium you better use your voice to good effect and try to push the team on. Moans can wait for the after match in the pubs.

[Big Dave]

We are being short-termist though. Yeah we have done well in the reserves and the youth academy of late, but none of those players have even been given a break in the first team.

I'm sure it didn't take Wenger 5 years to promote someone from his youth or reserve set up into a first teamer. And quite frankly our youth and reserve set up seems to be going backwards this year anywayWe don't give youngsters a chance and would rather spend a million here or a million there on some player who doesn't even get a regular game in their team. So what's the point?

Have to say................I can't think of anyone in their first team that was brought through their youth system

[dww]

Have to say................I can't think of anyone in their first team that was brought through their youth system

I'm sure that is true. Although the reserve team section is a fair point possibly - although I would say that very few that went through the reserve system and not feeder teams like Beveren made the first XI.

I'll give Sarb that this season that our reserves certainly have performed worse. As for the first team we will have to see how things go at the end of the season. I woulld however argue that we have started to see Insua and El Zhar in match day squads on a semi regular basis.

I really think there is evidence of long term planning at all sorts of levels, the problem is that some people seem to be looking for short term results from long term plans. Which doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

[Big Dave]

It's a difficult questions to resolve really. Keeping players at the club to play in reserve games doesn't seem to be working. There are too few games, and those that are played do not seem to be competative enough (and we've developed a habbit of losing those!!!).

Which means loaning the players out. I really do think that we need to see those players on the fringe of making the first team (El Zhar, Plessis, Insua, Nemeth) going out on loan somewhere and proving themselves good enough for the first team.

Unfortunately, with the size of the squad that we've got, their no way going to get any match day experience. It's proving difficult enough for the likes of Babel, Benayoun and Pennant to get in. What chance is there for the others?!

[dww]

It's a difficult questions to resolve really. Keeping players at the club to play in reserve games doesn't seem to be working. There are too few games, and those that are played do not seem to be competative enough (and we've developed a habbit of losing those!!!).

Which means loaning the players out. I really do think that we need to see those players on the fringe of making the first team (El Zhar, Plessis, Insua, Nemeth) going out on loan somewhere and proving themselves good enough for the first team.

Unfortunately, with the size of the squad that we've got, their no way going to get any match day experience. It's proving difficult enough for the likes of Babel, Benayoun and Pennant to get in. What chance is there for the others?!

I'd suggest that we will see more game time for the likes of El Zhar and Insua at some point this season. If only because of the frailty of Aurelio and the lack of real right sided options. I think in there is a chance that we will see in the future that the reserve produce more Rafa-like players - i.e. those that know how he likes a side to work tactically and this will give them a huge advantage over the likes of Babel who has been bought up in a different environment. There have yet to be (m)any players who have had a full footballing education from say 16 (preferably before) under the system Rafa wants implemented, which is one of the reasons I think judgements are premature.

I'm not sure that the reserve setup under Rafa has had enough time to be judged. We seem to be having more games this year - I wonder whether this is partly to blame for some of the results. I do think we seem to have too many reserve team players at present which doesn't help, and there does seem to be some evidence of a lack of communication between Melwood and the Academy.

Loans to teams that are not obliged to play people or are not explicitly our feeder team are always a bit of a risk IMO as you have to balance the fact that other British leagues have a huge premium on the physical aspects of the game which can count against young players, as can the fact that the leagues are genuinely competitive with no feeder teams. Loans to foreign teams have obvious problems in terms of the differences in league, culture and language for many of our young players.

[Big Dave]

I'd suggest that we will see more game time for the likes of El Zhar and Insua at some point this season. If only because of the frailty of Aurelio and the lack of real right sided options. I think in there is a chance that we will see in the future that the reserve produce more Rafa-like players - i.e. those that know how he likes a side to work tactically and this will give them a huge advantage over the likes of Babel who has been bought up in a different environment. There have yet to be (m)any players who have had a full footballing education from say 16 (preferably before) under the system Rafa wants implemented, which is one of the reasons I think judgements are premature.

I'm not sure that the reserve setup under Rafa has had enough time to be judged. We seem to be having more games this year - I wonder whether this is partly to blame for some of the results. I do think we seem to have too many reserve team players at present which doesn't help, and there does seem to be some evidence of a lack of communication between Melwood and the Academy.

Loans to teams that are not obliged to play people or are not explicitly our feeder team are always a bit of a risk IMO as you have to balance the fact that other British leagues have a huge premium on the physical aspects of the game which can count against young players, as can the fact that the leagues are genuinely competitive with no feeder teams. Loans to foreign teams have obvious problems in terms of the differences in league, culture and language for many of our young players.

It really is a tough one. I'm not a big fan of the loan system myself. As you say, there's no guarantee that the young lads will play and sending them abroad really doens't prepare them for the physical demands of the British game. Couple that with the fact that it's unlikely that the manager of the loaned to team will have them same tactical ideas as Rafa so will the player really benefit when he gets back.

Really frustrating that we aren't seeing anyone coming through, though as you say, it's going to take plenty of time! Agree on the fact that we seem to have far too many players at reserve level, but also maybe at first team level. There's no way these guys are going to get a break with so many squad players ahead of them.

I really did hope that the new increased subs allowed would have introduced the likes of Insua and the kind to the match day experience, though so far, our bench seems to be filled with those fringe players. Maybe they should have introduced a system as in Scotland where one or two have to be under a certain age.

[dww]

It really is a tough one. I'm not a big fan of the loan system myself. As you say, there's no guarantee that the young lads will play and sending them abroad really doens't prepare them for the physical demands of the British game. Couple that with the fact that it's unlikely that the manager of the loaned to team will have them same tactical ideas as Rafa so will the player really benefit when he gets back.

Really frustrating that we aren't seeing anyone coming through, though as you say, it's going to take plenty of time! Agree on the fact that we seem to have far too many players at reserve level, but also maybe at first team level. There's no way these guys are going to get a break with so many squad players ahead of them.

I think there are about the right number of first team players actually if you discount Pennant who is clearly not wanted. I think the make up is a bit off at the minute though as we have too many players who need games but also need to alter their position/tactical role - I'm thinking of Lucas and Babel in particular - along with a utility forward in Benayoun who doesn't seem to bring enough of a change in style to the first team.

I tend to feel that the next couple of years will show whether Rafa has got it right about player development as El Zhar, Lucas, Insua, Anderson, Hammil and Plessis should all by then have made it been sold for decent money or fallen off everyones radar. I have a feeling that Rafa thinks players can develop later than other managers and this is a factor in some of what we see.

I really did hope that the new increased subs allowed would have introduced the likes of Insua and the kind to the match day experience, though so far, our bench seems to be filled with those fringe players. Maybe they should have introduced a system as in Scotland where one or two have to be under a certain age.

I argued at the time that the Scottish style rule was a necessity and that without it we were likely to see the top teams largely use full strength benches. I think we have seen a mixed result this season - a lot of young players in the top four have been on the bench who may not have made it otherwise but I'm not sure that any who wouldn't have played otherwise have got significant playing time - in particular in the cases of ourselves and Chelsea. Again though I think the system will be best judged after a few seasons.

[rage]

Just to reply to the bit where you state that we are playing **** and that you're going to Anfield week in week out, well, I watch every bloody match on the TV even if it's 3 o'clock in the morning. Don't ever say that I don't watch the games. And we have been ****ing winning despite not playing well.

People booing is a disgrace. They should be happy we're top of the ****ing league instead of whining and moaning. Years of non success has made our fans worst. We're supposed to be with the side not against them. Our job is to support not to moan.

no offence fredo but honestly u see more to a game at the ground, player movement, tactics and positional sense.

1000s booed last week, why don't u go tell em their a disgrace? they paid their money and showed their frustration at the end of the game. u might not like it but thats their prerogative.

[Neil Young]

no offence fredo but honestly u see more to a game at the ground, player movement, tactics and positional sense.

1000s booed last week, why don't u go tell em their a disgrace? they paid their money and showed their frustration at the end of the game. u might not like it but thats their prerogative.

They can do it if they want but isn't that thinking like a customer rather than thinking like a fan?

[rage]

They can do it if they want but isn't that thinking like a customer rather than thinking like a fan?

neil, i really thought the booing was poor form, but then so was rafa's idiotic substitutions. fans are fickle, next week we'll be chanting the rafa song.