Post Match Recriminations - Hull City

[nbryan1764]

Exactly.

If you win the league it doesn't matter about the individual results you got against which teams, it doesn't matter if your points total is the lowest to ever win a title, the table is how you compare to everyone else over the season.

[Elvoz]

As I said I can't really comment on detail on yesterday as I didn't see the game. However I think there is a defense for Rafa in general about this:

There was an article earlier in the season that showed that in the last year Rafa's subs had actually been very effective. I think that his methodology while possibly flawed on occasion does seem to be reasonably successful overall. I think there is a distinct danger that people judge him against standards that no one achieves.

There is a distinct problem that with Keane off form and Babel going backwards as a player IMO our bench is not really up to all that much. It is quite possible to blame that on Rafa and if those players do not start to contribute more then questions certainly have to be asked.

I think Rafa would change the system 4-4-2 at times but at the minute I really don't see a huge advantage in the sort of changes people tend to want to see (two up top, Babel on somewhere). In the end I would argue (as I believe you have elsewhere) that we need a target man to allow us a plan B which we have seen Rafa use to good effect in the past.

but you wont find even guilleme ballague defending yesterdays mate

[Craig_H]

As I said I can't really comment on detail on yesterday as I didn't see the game. However I think there is a defense for Rafa in general about this:

There was an article earlier in the season that showed that in the last year Rafa's subs had actually been very effective. I think that his methodology while possibly flawed on occasion does seem to be reasonably successful overall. I think there is a distinct danger that people judge him against standards that no one achieves.

There is a distinct problem that with Keane off form and Babel going backwards as a player IMO our bench is not really up to all that much. It is quite possible to blame that on Rafa and if those players do not start to contribute more then questions certainly have to be asked.

I think Rafa would change the system 4-4-2 at times but at the minute I really don't see a huge advantage in the sort of changes people tend to want to see (two up top, Babel on somewhere). In the end I would argue (as I believe you have elsewhere) that we need a target man to allow us a plan B which we have seen Rafa use to good effect in the past.

I think most would agree that Keane is a good player that hasnt settled or found his form, as opposed to thinking that his current level is just how good (or bad) he is.

To get him back into form, he needs to play and needs a run. Same with Babel really. They both need to play half a dozen full (or nearly full) games, to gather some kind of stability and rhythm, as well as confidence.

Put all that aside even though - when you need a goal, you bring on players who are known for scoring or creating goals/chances, dont you?

Whether they're in form or not, Keane and Babel are the players we have. They are the tools at our disposal and when you need a goal, they're the ones we should be looking towards.

Why else do you put attacking players on the bench, if not to use them when you need something extra going forward?

[Craig_H]

I definitely see your point but I can also see Person A with their fingers in their ears, screaming 'lalala I'm not listening...we are not winning every game'

Ah, but you're moving the goal posts there. It's not about winning EVERY game. Hell, it's not even necessarily about winning. With yesterday's example, it's more about not doing the things that are more likely to help you win.

As i said, if we pile on the pressure and do all we can to score, but they defend well and we cant break through, fair enough, it's football. What i'd say though, is that if you do up the level of attacking threat, more often than not, you'll get that winner. We're too casual and methodical about it though and the conseqence is 4 home draws out of 9.

[RedReet]

Nah mate, of course i'm not sick of it.

I AM sick of people brushing over poor home results by saying 'we are still top' and then kind of implying that it's ok to draw at home on a regular basis, to weak teams, because we're still top.

The point is obvious really, if we keep doing that, we wont be top for much longer and certainly not top going into late March.

It's like two different conversations really.

Person A: Drawing at home to WHU, Hull, Stoke and Fulham is not good enough if we want to win the league.
Person B: We're top of the league.

Can you see my point? I can almost visualise person B with their fingers in their ears, screaming 'lalalala i'm not listening...we are top'

Ultimately, being top now means very little if we dont start dispatching these sides when they come to Anfield.

Ok, that’s fair enough, I see what you’re saying.

In the context of this whole thread it originally sounded like another person taking satisfaction from our failings which really bemuses me.

[Craig_H]

Ok, that’s fair enough, I see what you’re saying.

In the context of this whole thread it originally sounded like another person taking satisfaction from our failings which really bemuses me.

Absolutely not mate, our failings absolute enrage me and i jumped out of my seat with sheer delight when Bellamy scored today

[dww]

I think most would agree that Keane is a good player that hasnt settled or found his form, as opposed to thinking that his current level is just how good (or bad) he is.

To get him back into form, he needs to play and needs a run. Same with Babel really. They both need to play half a dozen full (or nearly full) games, to gather some kind of stability and rhythm, as well as confidence.

Put all that aside even though - when you need a goal, you bring on players who are known for scoring or creating goals/chances, dont you?

Whether they're in form or not, Keane and Babel are the players we have. They are the tools at our disposal and when you need a goal, they're the ones we should be looking towards.

Why else do you put attacking players on the bench, if not to use them when you need something extra going forward?

I see that point of view and as I say can't comment on the Hull game in particular.

On the Keane/Babel thing - I don't see the drive in either at the minute needed to make it at a top team. Gerrard, Carragher, Alonso, Kuyt and Mascher I see it in. Both have lots of talent but I you have to combine the two and for differing reasons that's where I think they both seem to struggle.

Keane was starting consistently and not performing. I know he go pulled a fair amount but he had fair chances to impress. He needs to relax maybe, but he seems to be not correctly focused and therefore not doing things he did week in week out with Spurs. His link up play when people have been running off him has been good though which gives me hope.

Babel - I'm having to fight hard not to write him off. He is still young and I need to keep telling myself that. Maybe he does need games but he needs to put his hand up and demand responsibility by maximising any opportunity he gets.

[RedReet]

I think most would agree that Keane is a good player that hasnt settled or found his form, as opposed to thinking that his current level is just how good (or bad) he is.

To get him back into form, he needs to play and needs a run. Same with Babel really. They both need to play half a dozen full (or nearly full) games, to gather some kind of stability and rhythm, as well as confidence.

Put all that aside even though - when you need a goal, you bring on players who are known for scoring or creating goals/chances, dont you?

Whether they're in form or not, Keane and Babel are the players we have. They are the tools at our disposal and when you need a goal, they're the ones we should be looking towards.

Why else do you put attacking players on the bench, if not to use them when you need something extra going forward?

That’s the obvious assumption, but as Rafa proved with Didi in Istanbul, not necessarily always the right choice.

Rafa said he wanted pace down the flanks so obviously saw a weakness there that was better exploited than adding an extra body in the middle. Unfortunately it didn't work out.

[nbryan1764]

Ah, but you're moving the goal posts there. It's not about winning EVERY game. Hell, it's not even necessarily about winning. With yesterday's example, it's more about not doing the things that are more likely to help you win.

As i said, if we pile on the pressure and do all we can to score, but they defend well and we cant break through, fair enough, it's football. What i'd say though, is that if you do up the level of attacking threat, more often than not, you'll get that winner. We're too casual and methodical about it though and the conseqence is 4 home draws out of 9.

not moving them and I am not talking about looking at 10 games for example and complaining that we are not winning all 10. The point I am making, and probably wasn't clear enough about, is that every time we don't win we get the same type of response here - which btw is probably about 10 times busier than when we don't win! Thats when person's A fingers goes into the ears. Me? I think it is a bit of both. I like to look at the bigger picture and with that I am satisfied - into December, top of the league, top of Champions League group, only beaten in 2 competitive games out of 27 (38 if you include the end of last season - sf v Chelsea in 90 minutes). On the other hand I get frustrated when I think the position could be better and I do think that yesterday we got it badly wrong. However I don't think we get it so wrong every time we have slipped up . Hey thats football.

[Craig_H]

I see that point of view and as I say can't comment on the Hull game in particular.

On the Keane/Babel thing - I don't see the drive in either at the minute needed to make it at a top team. Gerrard, Carragher, Alonso, Kuyt and Mascher I see it in. Both have lots of talent but I you have to combine the two and for differing reasons that's where I think they both seem to struggle.

Keane was starting consistently and not performing. I know he go pulled a fair amount but he had fair chances to impress. He needs to relax maybe, but he seems to be not correctly focused and therefore not doing things he did week in week out with Spurs. His link up play when people have been running off him has been good though which gives me hope.

Babel - I'm having to fight hard not to write him off. He is still young and I need to keep telling myself that. Maybe he does need games but he needs to put his hand up and demand responsibility by maximising any opportunity he gets.

I think it'll come with time. They've no confidence right now and it shows. There has to be a way out of this, unless the outcome is just that we leave them rotting with no confidence and then sell them for peanuts, which would be madness. I dont argue with them being benched yesterday (well, not enormously, benefit of the doubt to Rafa and all) but when it's not worked, that's the time to then use them.

They both have too much talent and ability to continue performing poorly - unless of course, they're mismanaged and used wrongly.

[Craig_H]

That’s the obvious assumption, but as Rafa proved with Didi in Istanbul, not necessarily always the right choice.

Rafa said he wanted pace down the flanks so obviously saw a weakness there that was better exploited than adding an extra body in the middle. Unfortunately it didn't work out.

Didi only came on in Istanbul because we had an injury.

And i dont think you can use Istanbul as an example, given how bizarre and miraculous the events were.

Yes, it didnt work out because it was the wrong decision. Pace down the flanks is fine, but when you've only got Kuyt in the middle, being outnumbered and outmuscled, it's pointless.

And what pace did Lucas bring to the wings?

[nbryan1764]

Didi only came on in Istanbul because we had an injury.

And i dont think you can use Istanbul as an example, given how bizarre and miraculous the events were.

Yes, it didnt work out because it was the wrong decision. Pace down the flanks is fine, but when you've only got Kuyt in the middle, being outnumbered and outmuscled, it's pointless.

And what pace did Lucas bring to the wings?

I agree that Istanbul was bizarre and could never be used as a yardstick! However it was a good sub by Rafa, Didi was coming on anyway but it was supposed to be for Traore - then Finnan was injured so Traore stayed on.

[Craig_H]

not moving them and I am not talking about looking at 10 games for example and complaining that we are not winning all 10. The point I am making, and probably wasn't clear enough about, is that every time we don't win we get the same type of response here - which btw is probably about 10 times busier than when we don't win! Thats when person's A fingers goes into the ears. Me? I think it is a bit of both. I like to look at the bigger picture and with that I am satisfied - into December, top of the league, top of Champions League group, only beaten in 2 competitive games out of 27 (38 if you include the end of last season - sf v Chelsea in 90 minutes). On the other hand I get frustrated when I think the position could be better and I do think that yesterday we got it badly wrong. However I don't think we get it so wrong every time we have slipped up . Hey thats football.

I disagree mate, i had no problem with the draw at Villa and even the Stoke game was one of those things - we actually went all out to win it and just didnt have much luck. Arguably the West Ham game too, Green made a world class save and on another day we would've won. I have no problem with those, aside from the frustration. But i can put it down to 'thats football' because we did the right things and Rafa made every attempt to claw us a winner.

Yesterday was different, rafa didnt actively make the positive changes to pile on the pressure or force a winner.

[Craig_H]

I agree that Istanbul was bizarre and could never be used as a yardstick! However it was a good sub by Rafa, Didi was coming on anyway but it was supposed to be for Traore - then Finnan was injured so Traore stayed on.

It opens up another debate really, because the Didi sub was about stopping Pirlo and Kaka, which it did.

Is Rafa equally as astute when it comes to changing things going forward, rather than stopping the opposition from playing? Not sure.

[nbryan1764]

I disagree mate, i had no problem with the draw at Villa and even the Stoke game was one of those things - we actually went all out to win it and just didnt have much luck. Arguably the West Ham game too, Green made a world class save and on another day we would've won. I have no problem with those, aside from the frustration. But i can put it down to 'thats football' because we did the right things and Rafa made every attempt to claw us a winner.

Yesterday was different, rafa didnt actively make the positive changes to pile on the pressure or force a winner.

I wasn't talking about you as a fingers in your ears person A though. I don't think you are, I think you generally give substance to your point of view whether I (or others) agree or not. I agree with all the points you make regarding the games you refer to. Yesterday was a bad day and I think Rafa got it wrong.