Post Match Recriminations - Hull City

[RedReet]

not sure you have ever seen me post sack rafa kid
tell me
if and i say if
we finish 3rd or 4th this season is he still doing a good job ??

no trophies given out in december pal

Why would I even contemplate finishing 3rd or 4th when we are having our greatest Premier League season to date and are sitting top with our main goal threat still to return?

Even if Chelsea did win we’d still be in a strong position and we’ll have continued as we have every season under Rafa to make progress.

[Craig_H]

Thank **** they screwed up.

Look im Rafa's biggest fan and im always the first to praise him because i know he is doing a good job and we are progressing. But at the same time i will criticize him if he deserves to be criticized. Yesterday was the first time i openly did that because yesterday he made the craziest decisions. When we drew with Stoke and Fulham it was understandable because Rafa put out the right team and we just didnt make it happen.

West Ham and Hull at home is totally different. If Rafa had gone for it and let Babel run at these average defences and played our £20m striker for 90 minutes then im sure we would have won, but to not bring on Keane yesterday was ridiculous.

So for once i think Rafa deserves a bit of criticism. I didn't react at the end of the game, i criticized the line-up before kick-off and you can check that at the start of this thread. We could all see that Kuyt as a lone striker was never going to work because Kuyt performs when he is out wide and not under pressure

For what it's worth, i think you're one of the more balanced posters on here.

You dont have any agenda or 'corner' as such, you just post according to what you see.

[Elvoz]

Why would I even contemplate finishing 3rd or 4th when we are having our greatest Premier League season to date and are sitting top with our main goal threat still to return?

Even if Chelsea did win we’d still be in a strong position and we’ll have continued as we have every season under Rafa to make progress.

the clue was in the word if

[Craig_H]

It sounds like it almost pains you that we're top.

Yes, it obviously 'pains' me.

Unlucky mate!

Step back a minute and consult the logical side of your thinking.

Do you honestly believe i'm 'gutted' that Chelsea didnt win?

Remember - the logical side

[dww]

Thank **** they screwed up.

Look im Rafa's biggest fan and im always the first to praise him because i know he is doing a good job and we are progressing. But at the same time i will criticize him if he deserves to be criticized. Yesterday was the first time i openly did that because yesterday he made the craziest decisions. When we drew with Stoke and Fulham it was understandable because Rafa put out the right team and we just didnt make it happen.

West Ham and Hull at home is totally different. If Rafa had gone for it and let Babel run at these average defences and played our £20m striker for 90 minutes then im sure we would have won.

So for once i think Rafa deserves a bit of criticism. I didn't react at the end of the game, i criticized the line-up before kick-off and you can check that at the start of this thread. We could all see that Kuyt as a lone striker was never going to work because Kuyt performs when he is out wide and not under pressure

I'm sure has made mistakes (arguably signing Keane if he is unwilling to play him) but given what we have seen this season I'm not entirely convinced that those two are as obviously the answer as you make out.

I didn't see the game against Hull but I think Kuyt performs when players get around him. Our failings in recent games have often stemmed from a lack of players from midfield getting close to the striker. I'm still of the opinion that at present we put at least one too few goal threats onto a pitch almost every game.

[Craig_H]

excellent post

listen fella we are all united in our goal but if you cant see the opportunities missed there is something very wrong
we are all delighted to stay top but we are also pissed off because the chance to put daylight between us and the rest was there

and tbh we could of done with going to arse with a cushion

It's staggering that people cannot see what we're saying, it really is.

[RedReet]

the clue was in the word if

What's the point?

[Elvoz]

What's the point?

yeah ok forget it mate im wasting me time with you your right we are all wrong

[Craig_H]

I'm sure has made mistakes (arguably signing Keane if he is unwilling to play him) but given what we have seen this season I'm not entirely convinced that those two are as obviously the answer as you make out.

I didn't see the game against Hull but I think Kuyt performs when players get around him. Our failings in recent games have often stemmed from a lack of players from midfield getting close to the striker. I'm still of the opinion that at present we put at least one too few goal threats onto a pitch almost every game.

From my point of view, what i think V is saying is that if we 'go for it' and cant quite get the winning goal, then that's football.

But when you dont even make proactive movements towards actively WINNING the game, then it's not impressive.

Seems like Rafa will never change the system, it's apparently foolproof. Well football is very flexible and sometimes you have to change things, when a certain plan doesnt work.

Even when Babel came on, there was no change in system, no change in mentality. It's fitting the shapes into the system, regardless.

Chelsea didnt win today and we're all delighted, but they actively went looking to force the winner, we didnt yesterday. We carry on playing, in the hope that something will break our way, but we dont push on and press hard, desperately searching for the winner and making our opponents break their backs trying to defend.

Sometimes things dont just happen, you have to make them happen and keeping just one striker in our situation yesterday, was a mistake.

[RedReet]

Yes, it obviously 'pains' me.



Step back a minute and consult the logical side of your thinking.

Do you honestly believe i'm 'gutted' that Chelsea didnt win?

Remember - the logical side

I don’t know what you think but your statement sounded like your sick of people saying that we’re top.

Chestnut: Old joke, stale joke, tired joke...

[Craig_H]

I don’t know what you think but your statement sounded like your sick of people saying that we’re top.

Chestnut: Old joke, stale joke, tired joke...

Nah mate, of course i'm not sick of it.

I AM sick of people brushing over poor home results by saying 'we are still top' and then kind of implying that it's ok to draw at home on a regular basis, to weak teams, because we're still top.

The point is obvious really, if we keep doing that, we wont be top for much longer and certainly not top going into late March.

It's like two different conversations really.

Person A: Drawing at home to WHU, Hull, Stoke and Fulham is not good enough if we want to win the league.
Person B: We're top of the league.

Can you see my point? I can almost visualise person B with their fingers in their ears, screaming 'lalalala i'm not listening...we are top'

Ultimately, being top now means very little if we dont start dispatching these sides when they come to Anfield.

[Exiled_red]

The thing is though that in football the ultimate measure of success, the league table, is comparative and not absolute. Obviously it would have been better to have taken advantage of opponents slip ups but the fact that this season we are competing against teams who make slip ups at a greater rate than previous years (possibly as the rest of the league have improved) should be taken into account when judging our performances.

I can see the point that we do in all likelihood need to improve in a number of areas to stay top but equally our opposition need to improve too which is not something we have been able to say in a number of years.

Exactly.

If you win the league it doesn't matter about the individual results you got against which teams, it doesn't matter if your points total is the lowest to ever win a title, the table is how you compare to everyone else over the season.

[Elvoz]

Exactly.

If you win the league it doesn't matter about the individual results you got against which teams, it doesn't matter if your points total is the lowest to ever win a title, the table is how you compare to everyone else over the season.

if we win the league mate i doubt people will be arguing to be fair

[nbryan1764]

Nah mate, of course i'm not sick of it.

I AM sick of people brushing over poor home results by saying 'we are still top' and then kind of implying that it's ok to draw at home on a regular basis, to weak teams, because we're still top.

The point is obvious really, if we keep doing that, we wont be top for much longer and certainly not top going into late March.

It's like two different conversations really.

Person A: Drawing at home to WHU, Hull, Stoke and Fulham is not good enough if we want to win the league.
Person B: We're top of the league.

Can you see my point? I can almost visualise person B with their fingers in their ears, screaming 'lalalala i'm not listening...we are top'

Ultimately, being top now means very little if we dont start dispatching these sides when they come to Anfield.

I definitely see your point but I can also see Person A with their fingers in their ears, screaming 'lalala I'm not listening...we are not winning every game'

[dww]

From my point of view, what i think V is saying is that if we 'go for it' and cant quite get the winning goal, then that's football.

But when you dont even make proactive movements towards actively WINNING the game, then it's not impressive.

Seems like Rafa will never change the system, it's apparently foolproof. Well football is very flexible and sometimes you have to change things, when a certain plan doesnt work.

Even when Babel came on, there was no change in system, no change in mentality. It's fitting the shapes into the system, regardless.

Chelsea didnt win today and we're all delighted, but they actively went looking to force the winner, we didnt yesterday. We carry on playing, in the hope that something will break our way, but we dont push on and press hard, desperately searching for the winner and making our opponents break their backs trying to defend.

Sometimes things dont just happen, you have to make them happen and keeping just one striker in our situation yesterday, was a mistake.

As I said I can't really comment on detail on yesterday as I didn't see the game. However I think there is a defense for Rafa in general about this:

There was an article earlier in the season that showed that in the last year Rafa's subs had actually been very effective. I think that his methodology while possibly flawed on occasion does seem to be reasonably successful overall. I think there is a distinct danger that people judge him against standards that no one achieves.

There is a distinct problem that with Keane off form and Babel going backwards as a player IMO our bench is not really up to all that much. It is quite possible to blame that on Rafa and if those players do not start to contribute more then questions certainly have to be asked.

I think Rafa would change the system 4-4-2 at times but at the minute I really don't see a huge advantage in the sort of changes people tend to want to see (two up top, Babel on somewhere). In the end I would argue (as I believe you have elsewhere) that we need a target man to allow us a plan B which we have seen Rafa use to good effect in the past.