Evra accuses Suarez of racism

[Neil Young]

Surely recognising the Spanish/South American meaning is a huge part of understanding the situation especially as the conversation was conducted in Spanish. If the same word was used in a conversation in English then they would be entitled to believe that the intended meaning of the word was that widely accepted in English culture.

I reiterate, it's all relevant.

But I think there's a danger here of finding arguments for letting Suarez off by saying he hasn't said anything wrong. Well, tough, in England he did.

But that doesn't mean he's a terrible person or that it's not an entirely understandable and even forgivable error, bearing in mind the relevance of all the other points raised by you and Polo and Shaggy and The Crazy Weatherman and lots of others.

But they're mitigation, they don't change the primacy of local laws (whether according to the criminal law or the relevant FIFA rules as applied here).

[dom9]

Out of interest, why John Barnes' nickname Digger?

Is it a reference to him being the black Steve Heighwey, or I have got that wrong?

[Neil Young]

Digger Barnes was a character in Dallas.

[Roboklopp]

Superb post *****

Cheers Whiteboy.

[Shaggy]

Out of interest, why John Barnes' nickname Digger?

Is it a reference to him being the black Steve Heighwey, or I have got that wrong?

His initials are JCB.

My Dad took me to Anfield in the late 80s and heard some fella shouting "go on, Digger". You can guess what I thought he was saying

[Neil Young]

Oh yeah, forgot about the initials. It's a multilayered nickname.

[dom9]

His initials are JCB.

My Dad took me to Anfield in the late 80s and heard some fella shouting "go on, Digger". You can guess what I thought he was saying

Thanks for the explanation.

[Roboklopp]

Was this bloke exposed &"convicted" as a racialist in front of the national public then Shaggy?

[Exiled_red]

I reiterate, it's all relevant.

But I think there's a danger here of finding arguments for letting Suarez off by saying he hasn't said anything wrong. Well, tough, in England he did.

But that doesn't mean he's a terrible person or that it's not an entirely understandable and even forgivable error, bearing in mind the relevance of all the other points raised by you and Polo and Shaggy and The Crazy Weatherman and lots of others.

But they're mitigation, they don't change the primacy of local laws (whether according to the criminal law or the relevant FIFA rules as applied here).

I think what he said was naive given the cultural differences. Given that we're supposed to be a tolerant multicultural society I think that the most appropriate way to deal with this situation is to verify his story, to get him to explain the situation and apologise for any offence that had been caused by what he said, and for the FA accept the mitigating circumstances and issue a suspended ban. IMO that is the fairest outcome all round.

[Neil Young]

I agree and yeah, a suspended ban, I can see that.

I can't see it happening though.

[Exiled_red]

I agree and yeah, a suspended ban, I can see that.

I can't see it happening though.

Because ultimately this case isn't just about Suarez and Evra it's about the FA sending out a message as well.

[sean_lfc]

Nearly 100 pages.

[Roboklopp]

Did you consider the Observers' Paradox before you posted that Sean?

[Red_Polo]

Ahh, that makes more sense

I thought we were on different pages then!

I'm not sure whether it's helpful to the cause or not. Just posted it because it offers a frank, if unsophisticated, view from a black journalist in a predominantly black country.

Perhaps I misunderstand you but I think you're missing an element here. For me there are three things: Suarez's intended meaning, based on the associations the word has in his culture; how Evra hears it, translated or in Spanish, based on the associations in his cultural background; and the fact it was said in England, with the cultural reference points that come to bear as a result.

So Suarez didn't mean to say something racist, Evra heard (or perhaps even chose to hear) it that way and if Suarez had said it in Uruguay it wouldn't be regarded as racist, no matter what Evra might have thought. Then the onus would be on the authorities to clarify to Evra that it wasn't meant in the way he thought, i.e. to educate him to understand the culture in which it was said and that it isn't considered racist, let alone inherently racist.

But it wasn't said in Uruguay, it was said in England so the onus is on the English FA to explain to Suarez that his comments are deemed inherently racist here.

My problem with the FA is not that they have chosen to interpret the word (or its translation) according to the prevailing cultural norms here - that seems perfectly proper in my view - but that they have ignored the mitigation that follows by accepting the cultural reference points of someone from a different culture. It's an absolutist position that effectively relegates other cultures to an inferior status.

In other words, as I said earlier, "We're not racist and you are because you're a foreigner. You can't help it because you don't understand but we're still going to punish you and f*ck your cultural background."

There's something more fundamental wrong here, though. The words spoken were in Spanish and have no meaning short of assumption without translation. The goal of translation is to convey most correctly what is being connoted. If the 'direct' translation connotes something different in English than it does in the original language then it is a corruption of what was actually said, and it's that the FA appear to have made judgement on.

[Shaggy]

There's something more fundamental wrong here, though. The words spoken were in Spanish and have no meaning short of assumption without translation. The goal of translation is to convey most correctly what is being connoted. If the 'direct' translation connotes something different in English than it does in the original language then it is a corruption of what was actually said, and it's that the FA appear to have made judgement on.