Evra accuses Suarez of racism

[kemm1]

I think it's reasonable to assume they're wrong though.

To assume otherwise would fly in the face of all available evidence in all previous matters.

Behave yourself old man...................

[Shaggy]

It's not intolerant to do that though.

I think it is.

[Neil Young]

Why should we cut him slack HE IS IN ENGLAND. When people travel and work in other countries I certainly can't use their country of origin cultural norms as an excuse for anything I have to respect local laws and traditions.

.................and yes it is wrong, this is not a movie, stand up comedy skit or political incorrect horsing around between friends of different racial or ethnic backgrounds, it was in a confrontational situation on a field of play.

I think that's a fair point about the situation.

However I don't think it's wrong to make allowances for ignorance of "our ways". If someone doesn't understand the cultural complexities of any issue because they're from somewhere else then they need to be educated but not treated as harshly as someone who should definitely know better.

[Neil Young]

I think it is.

Why? It seems to me intolerant to act as though one person's cultural references are more important than someone else's.

[Red_Polo]

Why is that more fundamental than the right, indeed the responsibility, of the relevant authority to make a judgement on what is said, whatever the original language?

I think we entirely agree the FA's judgement is very partial (in both senses). But just because something is said in a different language it does not mean it cannot be ruled upon or that the translation is not relevant (just as the meaning and connotations in the original is also relevant).

It's not at odds with their right to make a judgement though, and I have certainly never argued that. It does mean they need to really know their stuff when it comes to the language in question. For the vast majority of cases it wouldn't be so hard, but the words involved here make this case unique in the questions it raises. I am inclined to feel they were poorly placed to answer those questions and have been swayed by the assumption that the direct translation is representative and also by virtue of their understanding of racist language being borne out of what goes in English rather than what actually lends words/wording racist connotations.

OK, my apologies.................but I feel my reply is still adequate for your statement as one results in the other. I also think we're making a lot of assumptions on what the FA did or didn't do.

P.S. I generally have no time or respect for the F.A. and still don't but I'm not going to crucify them on this point.

We're definitely making a lot of assumptions, will be interesting to see exactly what comes out eventually.

[kemm1]

I think that's a fair point about the situation.

However I don't think it's wrong to make allowances for ignorance of "our ways". If someone doesn't understand the cultural complexities of any issue because they're from somewhere else then they need to be educated but not treated as harshly as someone who should definitely know better.

Yes that is a solid argument but it's also the decision of the authorities to decide what their tolerance thresholds are of the 'crime'. I'm extremely happy that England are less tolerant or these types of things than Spain for example. It hurts our club to lose our best player but I call it how I see it. To drill down on what the allowances should be is a matter for the FA to decide on what standards they want to set.

Besides based on this case and what you say about potential cultural ignorance it means Terry should get well and truely hammered by the FA as he has ZERO excuse and if he doesn't then we should attack FA headquarters.

I also use the word 'potential' cultural ignorance intentionally because we are also assuming that Suarez is completely culturally ignorant about the matter.

[Neil Young]

It's not at odds with their right to make a judgement though, and I have certainly never argued that. It does mean they need to really know their stuff when it comes to the language in question. For the vast majority of cases it wouldn't be so hard, but the words involved here make this case unique in the questions it raises. I am inclined to feel they were poorly placed to answer those questions and have been swayed by the assumption that the direct translation is representative and also by virtue of their understanding of racist language being borne out of what goes in English rather than what actually lends words/wording racist connotations.

Oh blimey, if you're saying they're not qualified to judge then yeah, of course.

And forgetting the easy jokes we could make about the FA not being fit to judge a competition to identify the most useless football administrators in England, the QC at the centre of this is an employment law specialist whereas this seems to me a matter of human rights.

[Red_Polo]

It's not intolerant to do that though. It's intolerant to ignore the other meanings and interpretations.

And that cuts both ways.

When you say other meanings, what meanings are these and who lent the meanings to them?

[Neil Young]

Yes that is a solid argument but it's also the decision of the authorities to decide what their tolerance thresholds are of the 'crime'. I'm extremely happy that England are less tolerant or these types of things than Spain for example. It hurts our club to lose our best player but I call it how I see it. To drill down on what the allowances should be is a matter for the FA to decide on what standards they want to set.

Besides based on this case and what you say about potential cultural ignorance it means Terry should get well and truely hammered by the FA as he has ZERO excuse and if he doesn't then we should attack FA headquarters.

I also use the word 'potential' cultural ignorance intentionally because we are also assuming that Suarez is completely culturally ignorant about the matter.

I rather think Terry will not even be charged if he is found not guilty in a criminal case though. And so the FA will be able to wash its hands.

Even though I think the doubts about Evra's credibility would have undermined the case against Suarez if that had been subject to the rigour and standards that apply in the criminal courts.

[CJ]

So to recap

[Neil Young]

When you say other meanings, what meanings are these and who lent the meanings to them?

To paraphrase Homer, it takes two to make a racist comment - one to say something and one to hear it.

And then there's a third - whoever has to adjudicate on it.

It could easily have been handled differently, as has been suggested earlier int he thread, so that the cultural misunderstandings were cleared up, Suarez could have apologised for saying something that was capable of being interpreted in a way that is totally different to what he had intended, followed by handshakes and a greater appreciation of cultural difference all round. But it's too late for that sadly.

[kemm1]

I rather think Terry will not even be charged if he is found not guilty in a criminal case though. And so the FA will be able to wash its hands.

Even though I think the doubts about Evra's credibility would have undermined the case against Suarez if that had been subject to the rigour and standards that apply in the criminal courts.

I fair and cringe that you may be right about the FA and Terry, they may well use criminal proceedings to weasel their way out of any responsibility on the matter.

Yes, Evra is a bit of a scumbag and any lawyer could have brought reasonable doubt to the fore. Anyway, it is what it is and the next 2 to 3 weeks should be interesting.

[Nicey]

Summary ?

[Frenchie]

Summary ?

Purple faced **** has too much sicophant fuelled power, Evra's a cunt, the FA is run by incompetant, arse covering cowards and Suarez will never walk alone

[Roboklopp]

So.basically Kemm, you're accepting that Suarez might well not be racist, that there well might be have been a lot lost in translation (although it wasn't translated by anyone except the poorly-qualified FA) and that he might be completely ignorant of any nuances or undertones in a language & culture he is relatively new to, but you're prepared to see him treated in a sufficiently draconian & clumsy manner that, despite the admission of both the FA & Evra himself that Suarez is not a racist, will see the vast majority of the public & press view & treat him as such, thereby ensuring he & his family are subject to a great deal of abuse as well as an extensive on- field ban, as oppsed to a public warning & education course? Notwithstanding that Evra's own initial racial insult was just that in the vernacular of course.

Once you are tarred with such a horrific tag as "racist", it is nigh on impossible to lose of course, no matter what your behaviour. Similar to the way Suarez has been castigated universally as a "cheat" since he got here, whilst other equal & worse offenders are turned a blind eye to in that respect.