Evra accuses Suarez of racism

[MrMichael]

More on the "kick"/foul...

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/...219#msg9684219

Just to quote that post here, because its good..

Credit to RedLFCBlood over on LFCREDS, here is video of Evra going down after contact with Suarez. Before you watch it, here are the FA's words:
In the 58th minute of the game, Mr Suarez fouled Mr Evra between the edge of the Manchester United penalty area and the corner flag at the Kop end. It seemed to us to be a deliberate foul, and the referee awarded a free kick. The foul was committed by Mr Suarez kicking Mr Evra on his right knee. Mr Evra explained that he had previously had a bad problem in that knee. He remained on the ground receiving medical treatment for about one minute after the tackle.

2nd point: Mr Evra said that while he was lying on the ground, Mr Kuyt came up to him and said "stand up, you ****ing prick". Mr Kuyt said "This is untrue. What I did say was something to the effect of "Stand up, stand up", as if to say that it had been a foul but he was making too much of it". The video footage did not show Mr Kuyt speaking to Mr Evra at this time, but Mr Kuyt admitted that he did so.

Now watch the video starting at about 1:15. Suarez did not kick Evra deliberately, and Kuyt did say something to Evra. Both points are obvious on the video to even the most biased United apologist, yet the FA gets both points horrendously wrong. They had zero desire to get the facts right. They put their blinders on and set out to find whatever they could to convict Suarez, discounting any evidence that didn't fit their wishes.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH50lwwBRms"]Patrice Evra simule face Ã* Luis Suarez - YouTube[/ame]

This seems pretty astonishing, its clear as day when you watch that vid that the report's version of that single event is totally wrong.

There's no way you can say that the foul was deliberate. The suggestion by the FA that it was deliberate shows the FA's bias in this issue.

You really expect me to believe that Suarez uses the word Negro when addressing Glen Johnson ?

Right ok... so picture this, a new guy starts in our work from South America next week, after a few days he gets into a bit of a discussion with one of the workers who is black because they have a difference of opinion to how the job should be done. In the end the new south american worker agrees with the Black worker over how the job done should be done and he says "OK Negro"

Dude. OK, firstly, you're doing what most of the media has been doing, translating the Spanish use of a word into English. Now as I've already said in posts above, if Evra's version of the exchange between him and Suarez is correct, then Suarez' use of the term was definitely offensive. HOWEVER, we've all been discussing tons over the past few weeks how, in a different context, for South Americans, in the Spanish language, the word "negro" is not inherently a racially offensive term. Hence the whole "El Negro Jefe" thing, and this...



So, in answer to your scenario, I can see their might be a substantial misunderstanding in that case, but no, the South American could easily have absolutely no offensive intent in saying that, and if the conversation took place in Spanish, with a co-worker who had good knowledge of the language and the way that word might be employed, he might not take offense at it either. So yeah, given his stated support for Suarez, it is possible that this could be the case with Johnson.

The FA report itself goes into some detail about how the term may be used completely inoffensively. Their conclusion though is that it also can be employed offensively, depending on the context, and as they accept Evra's version of the conversation, have concluded that Suarez intended it in an offensive way. That's the crux of the case, not the use of the word itself really, but how it was used - which differs greatly depending on whether you believe Suarez or Evra.

[Fredo]

This FA report is full of holes. Don't let the so called reliable journos on Twitter let you think that we as a club, along with Suarez,should take this sanction on the chin and move on. This video is damning.

[CJ]

My point is that even taking into account the adveserial nature of the encounter between the two it there are other possibilities to the intent such as sarcily being nice that still show no racist under tones.

I agree that you need to take into account the fact they were not being friendly on the pitch. That doesn't leave one option as your conclusion.

[ChesterDave]

Evra thought Negro meant n****r.

Apart from when he yelled to the ref 'he called me black'

Seems he knew damn well what it meant

[Sebastian Rooks]

The ****?!

Why haven't you addressed my point? Johnson unequivocally supports Suarez. Presumably he knows about Suarez's contention that he address Johnson as 'negro'. You seriously believe Suarez is lying, Johnson knows about it yet blindly supports Suarez regardless?

Lets just say for arguments sake that Suarez has never actually used the word Negro when talking to Glen Johnson, would you expect Glen Johnson to come out and say "actually Luis Suarez has never used the word Negro when referring to me I don't know what the hell he's talking about" ?? That's never going to happen, there all part of a team and will support each other, especially when it comes down to something that's happened between us and the Mancs

I'm sure Johnson is supporting Suarez and I'm sure that Johnson accepts that Suarez isn't racist ( as I believe we all do on here ) so for those reasons its not inconceivable that Johnson is just going along with this "I use Negro all the time when talking to Glen Johnson" as part of Suarez's defence is it?

[Shaggy]

I think it is completely inconceivable.

[MrMichael]

My point is that even taking into account the adveserial nature of the encounter between the two it there are other possibilities to the intent such as sarcily being nice that still show no racist under tones.

I agree that you need to take into account the fact they were not being friendly on the pitch. That doesn't leave one option as your conclusion.

Yup, absolutely. Again, if Suarez account, or something similar to it, is what happened, even though they were in an adversarial situation I don't think the usage would have had any such undertones.

If Evra's is correct then I think it probably did. Whether the intention was just to wind Evra up... possibly after seeing his initial reaction to the first, "innocent" use if the term... that doesn't make it any better. IF that version is true then Suarez was really very stupid, and in the heat of the moment said some very unwise things he deserves to be punished for.

Seeing as 95% of the journos have blindly accepted the report's version then it follows that they would then be unequivocal in their condemnation of Suarez. The issue then is the basis (or lack of) for the report in actually making that determination.

[MrMichael]

Lets just say for arguments sake that Suarez has never actually used the word Negro when talking to Glen Johnson, would you expect Glen Johnson to come out and say "actually Luis Suarez has never used the word Negro when referring to me I don't know what the hell he's talking about" ?? That's never going to happen, there all part of a team and will support each other, especially when it comes down to something that's happened between us and the Mancs

I'm sure Johnson is supporting Suarez and I'm sure that Johnson accepts that Suarez isn't racist ( as I believe we all do on here ) so for those reasons its not inconceivable that Johnson is just going along with this "I use Negro all the time when talking to Glen Johnson" as part of Suarez's defence is it?

Remember that interview Suarez gave in Uruguay when he said something like "I only used a word that Evra's Spanish speaking team mates use towards him all the time? Whether he actually knows it to be true or not, it would seem odd to say unless he believed it to be true. Or at least probable / believable. We've all seen that tweet of Hernandez' when he used the term "negrito", which is just the diminutive of the term. I genuinely think its perfectly possible Suarez could use the word with Johnson. Indeed I think its probable... much more likely that it just being invented to use in defence and Johnson going along. Not a very crucial thing (the defence would be 99.9% the same without it) and requiring people to lie etc.

[Suarez]

The mancs are up to no good

http://www.change.org/petitions/justice-for-evra

[Sebastian Rooks]

Fair enough, Mr Michael you make some very valid points... can I change my mind ?

[h7k]

Very good point, I would have thought he would definately have had something to say.

Unless Ferguson asked them all to keep quiet.

He called Suarez a Diver or a cheat in the interview after the match, No mention of any racial abuse.

[MrMichael]

Fair enough, Mr Michael you make some very valid points... can I change my mind ?

Its all conjecture anyway, the only people who actually know the truth are Suarez and Evra. I'd really like to hope that if the evidence was particularly solid, most of us would accept the FA's verdict. I for one am pretty sure that for Evra's part, he genuinely believes Suarez was offensive towards him, whether or not his version of the events is particularly accurate. I'm also pretty sure that it is not, and that the whole case is definitely so far from clear cut its pretty incredible to believe an unequivocal judgement could be made on the matter.

[alunevans]

According to The Guardian:

The report stated that after Evra asked Suárez during the game why he had been kicked, he replied in Spanish: "Porque tu eres negro," which translates as "Because you are black". Evra said he would punch Suárez if he repeated the comment to which Uruguayan said: "No hablo con los negros": "I don't speak to blacks."

What have I missed on here, as this is far less nuanced than I was led to believe. In fact, if this is true, it's blatant racism. What's the counter argument?

[Sebastian Rooks]

Anyway, lets say the club accept, as Luis has , that he shouldn't have used the word Negro and he wont use it again in the future, the FA have doubled what would ordinarily have been a four-match ban because he used the word seven times ?

Have they based this on Evra's word or is this referencing the unseen video footage of him saying this?

If the video evidence doesn't show this can we not appeal on the fact that there issuing an 8 match ban on Evra's evidence only, so if we can appeal that we could have it reduced to 4 games?

[Exiled_red]

According to The Guardian:

The report stated that after Evra asked Suárez during the game why he had been kicked, he replied in Spanish: "Porque tu eres negro," which translates as "Because you are black". Evra said he would punch Suárez if he repeated the comment to which Uruguayan said: "No hablo con los negros": "I don't speak to blacks."

What have I missed on here, as this is far less nuanced than I was led to believe. In fact, if this is true, it's blatant racism. What's the counter argument?

The counter arguement is that he didn't say it, he said something else. The FA believe Evra's version of events (that's the version used there by the Guardian) rather than Suarez' version of events.