Lucas

[Fernandinho]

I don't know how to work out Lucas's tackling rate for the whole season without going through and addind it all up... Is it possible to do or will it need me adding them up?

[rudedog]

Watch Lucas' passing chalkboard and tell me my description of Lucas isn't accurate. Look at the Bolton game, one successful pass forward in the opposition's last 30 yards or so, all game. Similarly against Blackburn, where his "penetrative passing" is to the full back.

Look at West Brom at home, why are the forward arrows red and the sideways ones are blue?

And btw, he's not averaging "one free kick" a game.

I can't take anything you say about football seriously whilst you're sporting that signature.

[Assassin]

John Doe it is obvious you are not impressed with Lucas. However, I am, he is a class player, who is still very young. There is continuous improvement in all aspects of his game, he will become a great player.

[Fernandinho]

I went and added up all the tackles Lucas has made this season in the games he has played for all you stats buffs.

According to Guardian Chalkboard Lucas has attempted 54 tackles in the 7 games he has featured in. He has won 28 of these and lost 26. His completion rate is around 52%. Not sure how that compares with last season and against other midfielders in the game....

Lucas won the most tackles vs Blackburn with 6, losing 5.

Lucas lost the most tackles vs WBA with 7, winning 4.

Vs City and Arsenal he only won 3 tackes and only lost 1. Very low considering both those games were played through midfield, you would have expected him to lost and won more, guess the game passed him by...

Edit: Just found that Lucas came on for Masch vs Arsenal on the 79th minute so that is actually a high rate of tackling.

Maybe Lucas not attempting many tackles vs City was one of our problems vs them

[RedReet]

Watch Lucas' passing chalkboard and tell me my description of Lucas isn't accurate. Look at the Bolton game, one successful pass forward in the opposition's last 30 yards or so, all game. Similarly against Blackburn, where his "penetrative passing" is to the full back.

Look at West Brom at home, why are the forward arrows red and the sideways ones are blue?

And btw, he's not averaging "one free kick" a game.

The discussion was about tackling at the time...

Yes. I've also seen hundreds of times when Lucas could not handle a player going past him and tripping him over in a dangerous position. You could pinpoint a few examples to back up any argument but what matters is efficiency over a long period. Lucas is not a very good tackler.

He's averaging 2 fouls a game with about 4-5 successful tackles a game at a 50% success rate this season (guardian). That is ABYSMAL.

[Mattshark]

He's averaging 2 fouls a game with about 4-5 successful tackles a game at a 50% success rate this season (guardian). That is ABYSMAL.

Ok, well Bolton and Blackburn play long ball, so that is a tactic that doesn't lead to a high volume of tacking. Secondly, are you just going to ignore last season because it doesn't fit your preconception?

Probably.

The alterations in our play this season have also altered how we close down (ie a lot less closing down) so you would expect less tackles.

[JohnDoe]

Me: Lucas can't pass well unless it's under very little pressure and it's not a penetrative pass.

But Lucas is restricted to a DM role, in which he's extremely effective!

Me: Lucas can't tackle very well, and he concedes fouls when he does. He's not as good a DM as it's made out.

You judgment is clouded by your prejudice, the evidence doesn't back you up!

Me: (showing stats clearly backing up evidence that Lucas is not a good tackler, and his fouls number going down mainly because he's not attempting many tackles)

But! But Lucas is a creative midfielder who's restricted as a DM!


Me: (Pointing out to previous evidence that even when paired with a DM, Lucas' passing does not change)


But! But Lucas runsaroundthepitchalot!

Rinse and repeat

[JohnDoe]

Don't take it so literally.

[Mattshark]

Me: Lucas can't pass well unless it's under very little pressure and it's not a penetrative pass.

But Lucas is restricted to a DM role, in which he's extremely effective!

Me: Lucas can't tackle very well, and he concedes fouls when he does. He's not as good a DM as it's made out.

You judgment is clouded by your prejudice, the evidence doesn't back you up!

Me: (showing stats clearly backing up evidence that Lucas is not a good tackler, and his fouls number going down mainly because he's not attempting many tackles)

But! But Lucas is a creative midfielder who's restricted as a DM!


Me: (Pointing out to previous evidence that even when paired with a DM, Lucas' passing does not change)


But! But Lucas runsaroundthepitchalot!

Rinse and repeat

You are ignoring a whole season and only using the 7 games Lucas has played this season, I have posted Lucas tackling stats from last season before, go look at them.

And out of curiosity, where do you expect Lucas, when playing DM, to have most of his passes come from?

[JohnDoe]

Ok, well Bolton and Blackburn play long ball, so that is a tactic that doesn't lead to a high volume of tacking.

Clutching at straws anyone?

Secondly, are you just going to ignore last season because it doesn't fit your preconception?

You mean the season he was paired with one of the finest DM's in the world and racked up an impressive 0 goals and 2 assists in the league?

[JohnDoe]

And out of curiosity, where do you expect Lucas, when playing DM, to have most of his passes come from?

His passing hasn't changed one bit when playing as a "DM" and as an "AM". Lucas plays one position anyway, and that's as the central midfielder who runs around the pitch a lot. Obviously, his tackling was better under Rafa and that's reasonable, but he was also paired and protected with what Liverpool fans called "the best DM in the world".

[Neil Young]

I can't take anything you say about football seriously whilst you're sporting that signature.

That's a fair point.

[Mattshark]

Clutching at straws anyone?


[/B]

You mean the season he was paired with one of the finest DM's in the world and racked up an impressive 0 goals and 2 assists in the league?

So? Scoring and assisting wasn't his role (that is like saying Alonso was **** because of his low assist rate in his last season with us, you don't expect many assists from that position, he needs to score more, but that is a secondary job and not what he is in the team for) He still made a lot of tackles and very few fouls, I doubt that part has much to do with Mascherano.

So you don't think long ball would alter tacking? Ok.

[JohnDoe]

So? Scoring and assisting wasn't his role (that is like saying Alonso was **** because of his low assist rate in his last season with us, you don't expect many assists from that position, he needs to score more, but that is a secondary job and not what he is in the team for) He still made a lot of tackles and very few fouls, I doubt that part has much to do with Mascherano.

Playing two central midfielders who can't score is a major hindrance to the team unless one of them is Alonso, who is class and made up for it in other areas.

What was Lucas' role last season? Another DM next a DM? It's funny, but Lucas' position alters whenever I question one of abilities. When I note he's not a very good tackler, he becomes a creative, supreme attacking midfielder, when I point out his passing is ****, he becomes an effective midfield destroyer.

[rudedog]

So if Lucas conceding an average 2 free kicks a game is considered a fair stick to beat him with - does anyone know how this would compare with someone like Mascherano who is considered one of the best tacklers in the game?