Lucas

[RedReet]

I think it is an extension of the strategy we have seen in all the games. As a one off it would mean little, to my mind though it was part of a pattern that has been apparent in all our games this season.

Our possession stats must be woeful for the season as a whole and I suspect the majority of most of our games are played in our defensive third of the pitch.

True. But at least we are seeing signs of improvement and one can only hope.

With Gerrard it is not so much that I worry he doesn't find people with those balls but that they are hard to control and that means the receiver struggles to hold possession or do anything creative. It's a sort of secondary effect that means we have so little of the ball.

He had a good game but I think Gerrard is capable of having good games wherever you play him. It is about a consistent strategy that gets the best out of him as part of a team. The Lucas-Gerrard CM partnership was excellent against Stoke early last season and woeful against Wigan later in the season. I think it can (and has) worked but more often than not I think it has problems.

The way we lined up yesterday was a good match up against a Chelsea team who seemed very narrow (and unwilling to switch play) and strongly biased to the left. I suspect it is more the exception than the rule. I guess we will have to see how it pans out over the season.

What I liked about the Bolton game was that Lucas sat deep receiving the ball while Meireles wandered about a bit creating space. Lucas had a similar role to Xabi as more often than not he was given the ball to start our moves. I’m a big fan of Lucas and always argued that if players have the right movement ahead of him he’s more than capable of picking them out. If Gerrard allowed Lucas this responsibility, he could then get forward posing a greater threat in the opposition’s half whilst also minimising the opportunity for him to concede possession in dangerous areas. That is not how it panned out at all yesterday, ha ha but the two of them still worked well together.

As you said, time will tell, but for now I'm happy to see either Gerrard or Meireles alonside Lucas.

[dww]

As you said, time will tell, but for now I'm happy to see either Gerrard or Meireles alonside Lucas.

I actually think this is a key point - Lucas works best when there are triangles of players to make short passes with. Meireles is very good at this. Perhaps we will evolve a narrow 4-4-2 into something more like some of the old Arsenal formations where the wide player on one side was much wider and more forward than the other with that as the base.

I tell you what I think is a real shame - that we don't have Insua and Aquilani to add to the centre of the team appear to be building. With them we would look like we had a really promising squad with depth and at least central midfield would be an area where we had players who complemented each other.

I guess Cole might start being half decent and then I will only have the loaning of Insua to moan about.

[danperkins]

I don't think so. When he was booed by the fans, that was out of order. But he was contributing very little to the team (MattShark will 'obviously' argue that point). Most people have been very patient with him.

I think the ground-swell of support shown to him lately goes to show that everyone wants him to do well. Forgiveness doesn't even come into it. He has shown remarkable resilience. And his game is consistently improving. He should be an automatic starter at the moment.

[RedReet]

I actually think this is a key point - Lucas works best when there are triangles of players to make short passes with. Meireles is very good at this. Perhaps we will evolve a narrow 4-4-2 into something more like some of the old Arsenal formations where the wide player on one side was much wider and more forward than the other with that as the base.

Funny you should say that, what actually sold Lucas to me was a performance early in his career. He didn’t do anything outstanding, but some of the interchanging and quick passing between him, Gerrard and Xabi was a joy to watch. World class players develop an understanding that lesser players aren’t capable of. I’m not saying that Lucas is world class or in the same category of Gerrard or Xabi, but the fact that he was on the same wavelength as them that day really impressed me. I don’t think I’ve seen it illustrated much since, but I always held on to hope that he’d have the platform to demonstrate his ability again as he is a very capable footballer.

I tell you what I think is a real shame - that we don't have Insua and Aquilani to add to the centre of the team appear to be building. With them we would look like we had a really promising squad with depth and at least central midfield would be an area where we had players who complemented each other.

I guess Cole might start being half decent and then I will only have the loaning of Insua to moan about.

Don't go there.

[BigChief]

In that clip, and yesterday, I noticed more than 3 definite fouls by Lucas on a Chelsea player. But because he stays on his feet and generally plays a clean game and has that innocent baby face the ref didn't blow.

The babyfaced assassin.

[kris90210]

Sorry, can’t be having that. When was this ‘long’ period of time? Surely you can’t be saying that the criticism was justified when he was a bit-part player getting used to a new league and new culture in his first few years? It’s highly debatable how poor or how well he played also.

Last year in his first season as an established first team player he was probably our most consistent outfield player (not necessarily our best), yet still came in for constant criticism. All the signs were there that he’d continue to improve, but certain idiots would still take every opportunity to belittle his achievements and regurgitate the same crap that was always spouted (sidewards passing, free kicks etc). You then had to listen to crap like ‘Lucas only looked good because everyone else was so bad’ or ‘if Lucas was one of our better players then you know we were ****’. Any time Lucas was mentioned in a thread, you knew exactly what was gonna follow and usually by whom. Some people couldn’t resist having a dig, regardless of how well he was playing and people would have the same old clichéd arguments despite what was happening on the pitch.

We signed him in 2007 mate. You said yourself that it was last season when he started to push on.

07 / 08 - he made 32 appearances
08 / 09 - he made 39 appearances

Up till that point he showed glimpses of promise but was frustratingly inconsistent. Then last season he was far, far better for us. Albeit, still inconsistent. I personally feel he faded quite a lot after getting off to an awesome start.

Because he's come good now, doesn't mean that the critisism of him at the time was wrong. However, some of it was undoubtedly over the top.

I don't think we're too far apart on our opinions really mate

[JHP]

The fact is people's attitudes, once formed, tend to shift slowly in the face of evidence that counters those attitudes. The more entrenched they are the longer the time lag.

That's very true. Then when it's changed it is seldom because the attitude was either wrong in the first place or continued to be help too long.

True re attitudes towards Lucas, Hodgson and all else and applies to everyone.

[RedReet]

We signed him in 2007 mate. You said yourself that it was last season when he started to push on.

07 / 08 - he made 32 appearances
08 / 09 - he made 39 appearances

Up till that point he showed glimpses of promise but was frustratingly inconsistent. Then last season he was far, far better for us. Albeit, still inconsistent. I personally feel he faded quite a lot after getting off to an awesome start.

Because he's come good now, doesn't mean that the critisism of him at the time was wrong. However, some of it was undoubtedly over the top.

I don't think we're too far apart on our opinions really mate

A lot of those appearances were from the subs bench though and when he did start it was a couple of games here and there. He was also involved in some memorably victories when he started like the Old Trafford game, beating Newcastle 5-1 and the two Inter victories. Fair enough he came with a big reputation, but the majority of players take time to adapt to the Premiership when coming from a different country, especially at such a young age.

I’m not saying it was wrong to criticise him if he played badly, but to criticise him when he played well and to abuse him at every opportunity was. I’ve wasted enough time arguing on this forum and in bars to know that it did happen, despite what others may say now the circumstances have changed. A lot of people had Lucas as MOTM yesterday, but if you watched MOTD last night, you’d hardly think he had a touch. That was the problem, people hadn’t even watched him play and he was still getting blamed and made the scapegoat. Or even worse, they do watch him play, ignore his 99 perfect passes, then come on here and complain about the one stray pass saying that it cost us the game (numbers might have been slightly tampered for dramatic effect, but it did happen ). The ridicule than ensued if you dared suggest that Lucas might be a good player a few years ago was a joke, so for people to say now ‘I was right, he was **** then, but he’s suddenly became a good player overnight’ isn’t on. I dare say if that performance was against a lesser profile team and not broadcast on Sky then the ‘Lucas is ****’ gang would still be thriving.

Ha ha, got a bit carried away there. Think we should just agree that Lucas is Boss.

[Craig_H]

Anfield was amazing today, thanks all the Reds supporters. This victory will give the team a lot of confidence to keep going. Well done reds. I am going to sleep because I am really tired today, tomorrow we start to think in the next game. Good Night #happy.
Lucas Leiva

[kris90210]

A lot of those appearances were from the subs bench though and when he did start it was a couple of games here and there. He was also involved in some memorably victories when he started like the Old Trafford game, beating Newcastle 5-1 and the two Inter victories. Fair enough he came with a big reputation, but the majority of players take time to adapt to the Premiership when coming from a different country, especially at such a young age.

I’m not saying it was wrong to criticise him if he played badly, but to criticise him when he played well and to abuse him at every opportunity was. I’ve wasted enough time arguing on this forum and in bars to know that it did happen, despite what others may say now the circumstances have changed. A lot of people had Lucas as MOTM yesterday, but if you watched MOTD last night, you’d hardly think he had a touch. That was the problem, people hadn’t even watched him play and he was still getting blamed and made the scapegoat. Or even worse, they do watch him play, ignore his 99 perfect passes, then come on here and complain about the one stray pass saying that it cost us the game (numbers might have been slightly tampered for dramatic effect, but it did happen ). The ridicule than ensued if you dared suggest that Lucas might be a good player a few years ago was a joke, so for people to say now ‘I was right, he was **** then, but he’s suddenly became a good player overnight’ isn’t on. I dare say if that performance was against a lesser profile team and not broadcast on Sky then the ‘Lucas is ****’ gang would still be thriving.

Ha ha, got a bit carried away there. Think we should just agree that Lucas is Boss.

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying mate. My point is just that any 'constructive' criticism of Lucas was not inherently wrong.

There are a lot of people who went overboard with the criticism, I agree.

I thought we might get a spotlight on Lucas during last nights MOTD2, but I guess with all the negativity surrounding Torres, it's not unsurprising that he was given all the attention.

[little dave hedgehog]

man, if lucas had a mouth on him like roy, i'd be so pissed off after yesterday's display.

[Arn]

Lucas is almost the perfect example of how difficult it is for a manager to give a young player a chance.

The team will be weakened until the player is ready but he must play to get better.

We can't only moan and say that a manager must give a young player the chance and at the same time expect the team to play as good with him in the team.

After a couple of years the young player will be ready and the team will be much better but we fans often isn't patient enough to give the young player the time he needs.

[red g]

Lucas is almost the perfect example of how difficult it is for a manager to give a young player a chance.
The team will be weakened until the player is ready but he must play to get better.

We can't only moan and say that a manager must give a young player the chance and at the same time expect the team to play as good with him in the team.

After a couple of years the young player will be ready and the team will be much better but we fans often isn't patient enough to give the young player the time he needs.

At a top team its almost impossible unless they are a fabregas, Rooney a quality quality player from an early age. The fact is that in a top team you cant afford weak links and there is no doubt Lucas was a very weak link for his first season and second really and Liverpool suffered.

there are quite a few mid twenty year olds who have been at the bigger clubs but have gone onto to be decent players becuase they left early and have played lots of games elsewhere.

Just look at Pique for Barca for one......he would never have been that good if he was just having the occaasional game at scum. and there are plenty of other examples i cant think of now!

And Arn I dont think Rafa did well perservering with Lucas in an ideal world and if we had money he should have shipped him out to Bolton or similar and glet him play there for a season or 2 when he came into the PL.

[Mostar]

Fair play, awesome performance by Lucas. A couple of years ago he was poor, but he's got better every year. I still think we need to get rid of Poulsen and bring in a decent defensive midfielder to compete with him, but there's no way he should be sold.

Well done Lucas

Absolutely. Poulsen was a madness signing and earlier we cut any ties with him better off we will be.

Lucas is certainly improving (had best game yet vs Chavs) but I also think we should be bringing a good quality player and have them compete for the role CM/DM.

[Arn]

At a top team its almost impossible unless they are a fabregas, Rooney a quality quality player from an early age. The fact is that in a top team you cant afford weak links and there is no doubt Lucas was a very weak link for his first season and second really and Liverpool suffered.

there are quite a few mid twenty year olds who have been at the bigger clubs but have gone onto to be decent players becuase they left early and have played lots of games elsewhere.

Just look at Pique for Barca for one......he would never have been that good if he was just having the occaasional game at scum. and there are plenty of other examples i cant think of now!

And Arn I dont think Rafa did well perservering with Lucas in an ideal world and if we had money he should have shipped him out to Bolton or similar and glet him play there for a season or 2 when he came into the PL.

I doubt that. All the problems Rafa had when he signed him points to that he planned to play him a lot. IIRC he set up a five day window when we and no one else could sign him. Like a marquee signing but not as expensive as they use to be. Rafa turned down at least one £10m+ for him a year or so ago.