Lucas

[Stimpy]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ33G8r60PY"]YouTube - Lucas Leiva vs Chelsea by ElAlonso[/ame]

He was awesome yesterday. More please

[Arn]

was wathching the game with a manc mate and he was like Lucas is Fletcher hard to disagree......**** to start with but played so much ends up being a pretty decent player

Many of us have said that Lucas will be our Fletcher and that he just need to play games to get there.

Thank you Rafa for giving a young player the chance to develop

I think Insua would have in a year so started develop in the same way. Young players need to play games week in week out to develop. They need a manager that is prepared to give them that.

Kelly is now in that position and Pacheco will be next.

[dww]

Any team would miss Mascherano because he is a world class player, but at the minute the pairing of Meireles or Gerrard with Lucas has the potential to be a lot more effective than when Masch played alongside. It’s hard to say after only a few games, but I liked the look of Lucas and Meireles together, and yesterday him and Gerrard completely bossed the midfield.

I have to say I was very impressed with Gerrard yesterday. After stealing the show on Thursday, you wouldn’t blame him for wanting to keep his name in the headlines and look for the glory himself against Chelsea. Instead, he was very disciplined in midfield, held his position well and used the ball efficiently. He seemed a lot more confident in Lucas and didn’t appear to have that superiority complex that he sometimes has. It was an excellent performance by our captain and both him and Carra led by example.

Kudos to Roy also. I questioned his decision to line up as he had, but he got it spot on. Still has to go though, but if he can repeat performances like that and has someone else to do his shopping, he mightn’t just be a complete disaster until he does.

I think both Roy and Gerrard deserve a lot of credit for the first half. If Roy had recognised the fact hat Chelsea play a narrow left biased formation and set up to counter that then he played a tactical blinder (or possibly his preferred formation was just ideal to counter them).

The second half if you ask me showed all the problems inherent in both Roy's plan and Gerrard in CM. The obvious retreat encouraged Chelsea on to us and I think they were pretty close to getting through, a fitter Drogba or a more creative player in midfield and I think we would have really struggled. Gerrard played too many ambitious balls when we won the ball back and gifted the ball back to Chelsea. It's not a good combination if you ask me (unless we get a targetman in during January I guess).

[The Birdman]

Quote on twitter saying in the last 4 games Lucas has misplaced just 8 passes, at any level that is amazing.
Funny how many people change their tune about him hey

[kris90210]

Quote on twitter saying in the last 4 games Lucas has misplaced just 8 passes, at any level that is amazing.
Funny how many people change their tune about him hey

Mate, Lucas HAS been poor in the past and so came in for critisism. Now he's playing well and is getting the plaudits he deserves.

[Pablo]

Quote on twitter saying in the last 4 games Lucas has misplaced just 8 passes, at any level that is amazing.

Fantastic stat that He does play the odd longer pass as well as the simple ones so that really is outstanding.

[dww]

Mate, Lucas HAS been poor in the past and so came in for critisism. Now he's playing well and is getting the plaudits he deserves.

I think people were over harsh then. He has been a limited player but I maintain that most of the good aspects of his game have been present for a while and to my eye the potential to play as well as he is now was fairly clear. He did have some poor games and he then (as now) has limitations to his game but he was not given the forgiveness which has been offered to some other players for poor patches of form or 'growing pains'.

[kris90210]

I think people were over harsh then. He has been a limited player but I maintain that most of the good aspects of his game have been present for a while and to my eye the potential to play as well as he is now was fairly clear. He did have some poor games and he then (as now) has limitations to his game but he was not given the forgiveness which has been offered to some other players for poor patches of form or 'growing pains'.

I don't think so. When he was booed by the fans, that was out of order. But he was contributing very little to the team (MattShark will 'obviously' argue that point). Most people have been very patient with him.

I think the ground-swell of support shown to him lately goes to show that everyone wants him to do well. Forgiveness doesn't even come into it. He has shown remarkable resilience. And his game is consistently improving. He should be an automatic starter at the moment.

[dww]

I don't think so. When he was booed by the fans, that was out of order. But he was contributing very little to the team (MattShark will 'obviously' argue that point). Most people have been very patient with him.

I think the ground-swell of support shown to him lately goes to show that everyone wants him to do well. Forgiveness doesn't even come into it. He has shown remarkable resilience. And his game is consistently improving. He should be an automatic starter at the moment.

I'm slightly more towards MattShark than you on his previous contribution I think.

I think the booing and the content of these threads about him would indicate that most people weren't patient with him. He has taken abuse at games and been consistently criticised on here for crimes which other are at least equally guilty of. The amount of times I have read people claim something along the lines of 'we will never be a good team as long as Lucas gets a place in it' so many times on here.

I wasn't referring to forgiveness in the long term sense (which I agree with you most people are not so blinkered as to keep hating on him when he is a vital player in the team) but of individual mistakes. Every time he gave away a free kick or misplaced a pass people claimed it was typical even when it was actually very rare as evidenced by the stats and other players like Gerarrd and Mascherano were guilty of the same things more often.

[kris90210]

I'm slightly more towards MattShark than you on his previous contribution I think.

Fair enough mate

Here's my position:

* There was a long period of time when Lucas was not playing well. He wasn't contributing much to the team.
* Just because he's started playing well now, doesn't mean people weren't entitled to voice their crisitisms at a time when he WAS playing poorly.
* Some of the critisism he came in for was excessive.
* He began changing people's opinions last season when he improved considerably.
* He has continued to improve and has shown remarkable strength of character - which I think 99% of fans respect.
* Everyone's a winner!

As a couple of other people have said, he now needs to add consistency to his game. Can he do it? I reckon he can. Lucas Leiva

[RedReet]

I think both Roy and Gerrard deserve a lot of credit for the first half. If Roy had recognised the fact hat Chelsea play a narrow left biased formation and set up to counter that then he played a tactical blinder (or possibly his preferred formation was just ideal to counter them).

The second half if you ask me showed all the problems inherent in both Roy's plan and Gerrard in CM. The obvious retreat encouraged Chelsea on to us and I think they were pretty close to getting through, a fitter Drogba or a more creative player in midfield and I think we would have really struggled. Gerrard played too many ambitious balls when we won the ball back and gifted the ball back to Chelsea. It's not a good combination if you ask me (unless we get a targetman in during January I guess).

I don’t think the second half yesterday is a good barometer to use at the minute. If Roy at half time instructed them to sit deep and soak up the pressure then maybe so, but in the situation we are in it’s not surprising that the players themselves were happy to sit back and try and preserve what we had. I don’t think it would have made much difference if it was Gerrard, Meireles or even Mascherano in the middle. Besides, this was unknown territory for our team and Roy this year, scoring two first half goals was never in the script. I can just imagine Roy thinking to himself ‘holy ****, what do I do now’?

Normally I’d be totally on board with what you say about Gerrard and have argued against playing him in the centre in the past. Having watched how well Lucas coped against Blackburn though with Meireles often bombing forward, I mentioned that I wouldn’t mind seeing Gerrard there as we didn’t seem too exposed when Lucas was left on his own and we’d obviously get more end product from Gerrard going forward. I was thinking it might work against the like of Wigan or Stoke, wouldn’t have fancied it against Chelsea. I thought Gerrard played a lot better than I expected yesterday though and I can’t remember too many Hollywood balls. The Guardian chalkboard shows that bar one all his failed long range passes were into the box (including 2 corners) which is acceptable in my book. I imagine that if things hadn’t went to plan and we were chasing the game we’d have seen a different Gerrard with his frailties fully exposed and I’m sure if I watched the game back I’d see a few occasions where Gerrard was maybe pulled out of position or choose the wrong pass. Overall though I thought it was a very mature and disciplined performance and for once would welcome the idea of seeing him there again against Stoke and Wigan (although I don’t like Meireles out wide).

[dww]

I don’t think the second half yesterday is a good barometer to use at the minute. If Roy at half time instructed them to sit deep and soak up the pressure then maybe so, but in the situation we are in it’s not surprising that the players themselves were happy to sit back and try and preserve what we had. I don’t think it would have made much difference if it was Gerrard, Meireles or even Mascherano in the middle. Besides, this was unknown territory for our team and Roy this year, scoring two first half goals was never in the script. I can just imagine Roy thinking to himself ‘holy ****, what do I do now’?

I think it is an extension of the strategy we have seen in all the games. As a one off it would mean little, to my mind though it was part of a pattern that has been apparent in all our games this season.

Our possession stats must be woeful for the season as a whole and I suspect the majority of most of our games are played in our defensive third of the pitch.

Normally I’d be totally on board with what you say about Gerrard and have argued against playing him in the centre in the past. Having watched how well Lucas coped against Blackburn though with Meireles often bombing forward, I mentioned that I wouldn’t mind seeing Gerrard there as we didn’t seem too exposed when Lucas was left on his own and we’d obviously get more end product from Gerrard going forward. I was thinking it might work against the like of Wigan or Stoke, wouldn’t have fancied it against Chelsea. I thought Gerrard played a lot better than I expected yesterday though and I can’t remember too many Hollywood balls. The Guardian chalkboard shows that bar one all his failed long range passes were into the box (including 2 corners) which is acceptable in my book. I imagine that if things hadn’t went to plan and we were chasing the game we’d have seen a different Gerrard with his frailties fully exposed and I’m sure if I watched the game back I’d see a few occasions where Gerrard was maybe pulled out of position or choose the wrong pass. Overall though I thought it was a very mature and disciplined performance and for once would welcome the idea of seeing him there again against Stoke and Wigan (although I don’t like Meireles out wide).

With Gerrard it is not so much that I worry he doesn't find people with those balls but that they are hard to control and that means the receiver struggles to hold possession or do anything creative. It's a sort of secondary effect that means we have so little of the ball.

He had a good game but I think Gerrard is capable of having good games wherever you play him. It is about a consistent strategy that gets the best out of him as part of a team. The Lucas-Gerrard CM partnership was excellent against Stoke early last season and woeful against Wigan later in the season. I think it can (and has) worked but more often than not I think it has problems.

The way we lined up yesterday was a good match up against a Chelsea team who seemed very narrow (and unwilling to switch play) and strongly biased to the left. I suspect it is more the exception than the rule. I guess we will have to see how it pans out over the season.

[dww]

Fair enough mate

Here's my position:

* There was a long period of time when Lucas was not playing well. He wasn't contributing much to the team.
* Just because he's started playing well now, doesn't mean people weren't entitled to voice their crisitisms at a time when he WAS playing poorly.
* Some of the critisism he came in for was excessive.
* He began changing people's opinions last season when he improved considerably.
* He has continued to improve and has shown remarkable strength of character - which I think 99% of fans respect.
* Everyone's a winner!

As a couple of other people have said, he now needs to add consistency to his game. Can he do it? I reckon he can. Lucas Leiva

Fair enough.

Still don't agree with the first contention but it is a valid point of view.

[RedReet]

Fair enough mate

Here's my position:

* There was a long period of time when Lucas was not playing well. He wasn't contributing much to the team.
* Just because he's started playing well now, doesn't mean people weren't entitled to voice their crisitisms at a time when he WAS playing poorly.
* Some of the critisism he came in for was excessive.
* He began changing people's opinions last season when he improved considerably.
* He has continued to improve and has shown remarkable strength of character - which I think 99% of fans respect.
* Everyone's a winner!

As a couple of other people have said, he now needs to add consistency to his game. Can he do it? I reckon he can. Lucas Leiva

Sorry, can’t be having that. When was this ‘long’ period of time? Surely you can’t be saying that the criticism was justified when he was a bit-part player getting used to a new league and new culture in his first few years? It’s highly debatable how poor or how well he played also.

Last year in his first season as an established first team player he was probably our most consistent outfield player (not necessarily our best), yet still came in for constant criticism. All the signs were there that he’d continue to improve, but certain idiots would still take every opportunity to belittle his achievements and regurgitate the same crap that was always spouted (sidewards passing, free kicks etc). You then had to listen to crap like ‘Lucas only looked good because everyone else was so bad’ or ‘if Lucas was one of our better players then you know we were ****’. Any time Lucas was mentioned in a thread, you knew exactly what was gonna follow and usually by whom. Some people couldn’t resist having a dig, regardless of how well he was playing and people would have the same old clichéd arguments despite what was happening on the pitch.

[Neil Young]

The fact is people's attitudes, once formed, tend to shift slowly in the face of evidence that counters those attitudes. The more entrenched they are the longer the time lag.