Fernando Torres

[Shaggy]

No no no, but Rafa was too defensive, he never allowed Gerrard and Torres express themselves

I think in their three seasons together Gerrard scored 59 goals and Torres scored an absolute ****ing truckload. Amazing how so many pundits and press people (I'm looking at you, Sky Sports) still found cause to criticise Benitez's use of the pair. He got the best out of both of them.

[Craig_H]

I think in their three seasons together Gerrard scored 59 goals and Torres scored an absolute ****ing truckload. Amazing how so many pundits and press people (I'm looking at you, Sky Sports) still found cause to criticise Benitez's use of the pair. He got the best out of both of them.

He did. His overall outlook WAS, at times, a little over cautious and perhaps limited our chances slightly. But nobody's perfect.

[Shaggy]

Can't argue with that, if anything he obviously leant more towards caution than carefree attacking ....but he knew how to get the best out of those two and arguably turned them both into genuinely world class players. I think with Rafa's teams and the way he sets them up...there's so much thought put into it, everything needs to work and when it clicks his teams are near unstoppable. But it's almost as if one part of the team malfunctions then the team suffers more than it perhaps ordinarily should.

If that makes any sense?

[Craig_H]

Yeah it does. I also think that if we had a world class player in Kuyt's position (or left wing), then things may have been different. One characteristic of our team under Rafa was that, in terms of consistently, we could only really look to SG and Torres to win us games. And when they didnt, we lacked consistent world class threat from elsewhere.

If we'd had one more 'matchwinner' of a world class quality, then you could perhaps still BE that bit cautious and still manage to win the games, because while you keep it tight and cautious to prevent from conceding goals, at least ONE of your 3 (if we'd had 3) regular world class matchwinners is more than feasibly going to win you the game.

[Arn]

He did. His overall outlook WAS, at times, a little over cautious and perhaps limited our chances slightly. But nobody's perfect.

Would we have been the most feared club in Europe if we hadn't been over cautious?

There is only one club out there that is able to play both excellent attacking and defensive football, Barcelona.

You simply more or less can't play both excellent attacking and defensive football.

Rafa almost made us do that. Says it all how excellent he is.

[Craig_H]

Would we have been the most feared club in Europe if we hadn't been over cautious?

There is only one club out there that is able to play both excellent attacking and defensive football, Barcelona.

You simply more or less can't play both excellent attacking and defensive football.

Rafa almost made us do that. Says it all how excellent he is.

This just sums up how you literally never acknowledge that anything he ever did was wrong. He was basically perfect. You dont accept that sometimes our mentality under rafa led to us dropping points we shouldnt have dropped - and that is as close to fact, as you can get. It doesnt mean he didnt also have some fantastic traits which benefitted us immensely, because he did. But he also had some flaws which, at times, probably cost us. You can never acknowledge or accept this.

So simply, there's just no point debating anything with you, when it comes to Rafa. You're completely incapable of any objectivity.

[Arn]

This just sums up how you literally never acknowledge that anything he ever did was wrong. He was basically perfect. You dont accept that sometimes our mentality under rafa led to us dropping points we shouldnt have dropped - and that is as close to fact, as you can get. It doesnt mean he didnt also have some fantastic traits which benefitted us immensely, because he did. But he also had some flaws which, at times, probably cost us. You can never acknowledge or accept this.

So simply, there's just no point debating anything with you, when it comes to Rafa. You're completely incapable of any objectivity.

Look at our back four back then. To be able to get the best out of players like Carra or Riise then you can't play super attacking football. They aren't good enough with the ball. You must play a defensive system that suits them.

Rafa would have had to either bench Carra or sell him if he wanted us to play more attacking.

You must use a system that suits the players. If Rafa would have had two central defenders like Agger then the option would have been there to play a more attacking system. That would have meant no Carra.

He didn't had two central defenders like Agger. That means the option wasn't there. He couldn't play a system that didn't suited the players.

He did that his last season, 2009-10. He played 4-2-3-1 even that we didn't had the players to do that with Torres out injured more than half the season.

The result, seventh in the league.

Rafa isn't perfect but he played a system that suited the players five seasons out of six. He played a system to get the best out of our key players. He played a system that didn't depend on any key player five seasons out of six.

[Craig_H]

I didnt say a more attacking system, i said mentality.

And i also said it's pointless debating Rafa with you, so i wont be doing so. You're better off not wasting your time fella.

[Rudo]

Get a room you two

[Craig_H]

I'm withdrawing my participation from debating with him so as to avoid the bickering, so stop whinging.

[CJ]

Can't argue with that, if anything he obviously leant more towards caution than carefree attacking ....but he knew how to get the best out of those two and arguably turned them both into genuinely world class players. I think with Rafa's teams and the way he sets them up...there's so much thought put into it, everything needs to work and when it clicks his teams are near unstoppable. But it's almost as if one part of the team malfunctions then the team suffers more than it perhaps ordinarily should.

If that makes any sense?

yeah i get that. when rafas team clicked it was great when it didnt it was still good in the main but no where near the quality of the clicking team.

was he too cautious? maybe but most good managers build on clean sheets and strong defences.

also you dont always win by just attacking and we dont know what the outcome would have been if he had attacked more. its too simplistic to say well we would have won.

one weakess of rafas system is the need for intelligent players (i know it sounds strange) but not all players are intelligent. see cisse etc. it would be possible to get more out of the players we had a certain times with different methods.

perhaps he wasnt pragmatic enough even though his football was to an extent pragmatic.

[Mostar]

For any Torres lovers.

[Maxiedge]

Although the gerrard/ torres partnership was awesome at times, we were at our best the season before with crouch/cisse up front. Everton away that season...first half...best footballing display i have ever seen

[Icon]

[Helios Creed]

Last night, despite everything, a small part of me was hoping he would score. I was brought back to my senses by my 10 yr old daughter who said "ha, I'm glad he missed - I hate him in that shirt". I didn't think she was that bothered about LFC, but has obviously heard me ranting and wailing when he betrayed us.