Rafa Watch

[Chris]

Yeah he's doing a good job. Chelsea have been much better since Di Matteo was replaced.

They havent been any better let alone much better. He arrived 4 points behind the top, it's now 11.

[Kenneth]

I think presenting arguments like "Their major signings, while talented, are 21 year old kids." in reference to players like Oscar is pretty telling personally. You may just regard it as stating a fact, and apart from 21 year olds not being kids (in real life and in football) it seems designed to play down the quality of their playing staff to 'excuse' Rafa.

[danperkins]

If the manager was in charge of Chelsea was anybody other the Rafa, i very much doubt anybody on here would be defending how they have done since he arrived.

Much like the 150,000 other Rafa debates of the past, they are never balanced.... any usually end up in arguments.

[Shaggy]

I think presenting arguments like "Their major signings, while talented, are 21 year old kids." in reference to players like Oscar is pretty telling personally. You may just regard it as stating a fact, and apart from 21 year olds not being kids (in real life and in football) it seems designed to play down the quality of their playing staff to 'excuse' Rafa.

Nope. If they'd signed for us anyone with half a brain would allow them time to deliver. Coutinho will get it, right? Oscar is no different. Likewise Hazard. Immensely talented, young and coming from different leagues, countries and cultures. They've been here six months. And those, plus Azpilicueta, were the players added to a 64 point 6th placed team. And Ba recently.

It's that simple. You can read stuff into it that's not there if you like. It's straightforward. He's doing decent, okay, whatever you want to call it. That's all I've ever said.

[Kenneth]

Almost convincing.

[Shaggy]

It should be convincing cos its true. If we'd signed those players those would be the feelings of any Red with half a brain.

[Red_Polo]

I think people lose sight of things they normally wouldn't where Rafa is concerned, both when making their arguments and responding to others arguments. Had such a long time of idiots polarising this debate that now even eminently sensible folk are have shifted their default attitudes accordingly. Would it be unfair to suggest it makes people end up arguing against things that have not been argued using arguments they don't really believe?

[Shaggy]

I think people lose sight of things they normally wouldn't where Rafa is concerned, both when making their arguments and responding to others arguments. Had such a long time of idiots polarising this debate that now even eminently sensible folk are have shifted their default attitudes accordingly. Would it be unfair to suggest it makes people end up arguing against things that have not been argued using arguments they don't really believe?

Not sure if you mean me ...but just in case, you don't really think I don't really believe in my point about Hazard/Oscar? Because I do. Course I do. Its just common sense.

[Kenneth]

RCDNW

In yo face.

[Shaggy]

Awesome

[Red_Polo]

Not sure if you mean me ...but just in case, you don't really think I don't really believe in my point about Hazard/Oscar? Because I do. Course I do. Its just common sense.

I meant pretty much everyone. We're all now to some extent infected by the idea that, in this debate, others fit into a pigeonhole. At the same time we're outraged at the idea that we fit into another one. It's the default position of us all when discussing Rafa now, and is unhelped by the small collection of clowns who genuinely do inhabit one of these pigeonholes. (Thanks, dickheads.)

I wasn't specifically referring to your point about Hazard/Oscar, but I'd say it's true that you were making a point that didn't fit the argument though. You basically said they had only signed a few talented kids in the context of how much improvement we could expect.

Do you really believe that they shouldn't have improved on that league performance significantly this season? Not just because of who they had signed but because part of the reason they did so poor in the league was the political cluster**** under AVB and the concentration on the cups they eventually won in the latter part of the season.

In any case, that phrase certainly downplayed the transfer activity. Hazard was drooled over by half of the forum and cost Chelsea in excess of £30m because he's already seriously good, not because he might turn out decent in a year or two. (Oscar less so, of course.) If they weren't performing then yes their age might allow them deserved leeway. But they are performing and that's not unexpected - it's the reason so much was forked out for them.

[Shaggy]

They have had the sort of first seasons you'd expect. You can see their quality but they haven't been at all consistent and neither has performed as a £32m or £20m player - as you'd expect given their age. Sure they spent loads on them but I guarantee had we signed them and they'd been as inconsistent, the arguments in their defence would rightly be the same. They can't help their transfer fee, and they didn't buy Hazard for this season alone. We all know the score, we've seen it here regarding our players plenty of times.

And in any case, they're on course for 70 odd points, which without being great would be an improvement.

And all I've said is his record is decent.

[Red_Polo]

Well yeah, but I'm not actually arguing against the latter two sentences am I?

In fact I've argued much the same myself. That's kinda my point. Everything gets conflated to the point where there is no longer an argument being had, just a current list of who appears to be on whose 'side'.

I agree Hazard and Oscar have had the sort of first seasons you would expect. They are players who whilst young and with the potential to offer more in future, were good enough to provide an improvement this season and have done so. (Again, I think more so Hazard than Oscar.)

That good transfer business along with the resolution of some of the issues that saw them underachieve last season is why 64 points wasn't a fair barometer for setting expectation this season. It's also why 70 odd points will be an improvement without being great, just as you say

Going back to my initial point, we appear to be so obsessed with having to defend stances on this that we all make an argument where there is very little argument to be had. Usually because we make assumptions based on the tone and phrasing, having had so long suffering complete clowns lowering the tone on this topic. If we sensible folk can't shake the clown legacy, then even the kittehs will not save us.

[dom9]

Re your last para polo, that's the same in most threads in the footy forums. Not just this thread.

[Red_Polo]

It has its moments. When it's not in meltdown mode there are still concurrent arguments in other threads that do get taken on own their own merits. Some threads more than others, some days more than others. Today, I hate to think!