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    (Edit: Well, this turned out a lot longer than intended. Sorry. Anyway.) I'm pretty baffled by the lack of patience shown to Benteke. You'd think he was Balotelli, and not someone who was doing pretty okay here and who has a proven track record in the PL. You'd think we had better options. He isn't, and we don't.

    First of all: Benteke's been a little disappointing, but he's also scored five goals in about 1000 minutes of play here, none of them pens. His non-penalty goals per 90 minutes rate is about .4, in both the PL and in all comps, and add in assists and it's up to .5 in the PL and .6 in all comps. Those aren't amazing numbers - they're not Sturridge numbers, for instance - but they're not horrible. They're respectable. Certainly it's more than Firmino, Lallana or Coutinho are giving us. Even yesterday, when he was scapegoated thoroughly, he got on the end of a few good chances. Those will hit the back of the net plenty. There are things he doesn't do well at all that are a stylistic problem, like pressing, and I readily admit that. But in a lot of other areas he's unfairly denigrated. He's no less creative than Ings or Sturridge, for instance.

    His pedigree is worth considering too. Three years, almost 8000 minutes of Premier League football, and each year he's been roughly a .45 NPG90 striker. That's a remarkable sort of consistency. Ideally a first-choice striker at a top four club would be at .5 or higher, but a slightly-less-than-1-in-2 proven Premier League striker is still a massive asset. If he gives nothing else but a goal every 200 minutes he plays, that's still substantial value. And that is, historically, what he's done whenever he's been played. Those goals come in bunches, admittedly, but they do come.

    So already I'm pretty wary of this idea that Benteke's **** enough, or has been **** enough here, to deserve being sold right away or dropped. But that especially makes no sense when there's no answer to the question of Who the **** else are we going to play?

    Let me make clear that I like Origi. I liked him a month ago when people 'couldn't see it' and I like him now when people have decided he's the New Henry and New Anelka rolled into one. (You're all wrong: he's the New Aubameyang.) But he's played 800 minutes of competitive football for us and scored exactly two non-fluke goals. He's had one good game in red and it's worth pointing out that that came partnered with Sturridge (who is a massive vortex that positively distorts the attacking performance of everyone he plays with). Every other time he's played, particularly up top on his own, he's looked in over his head.

    And then there's Sturridge (hah) and Ings (injured). After that, maybe Firmino? Who has looked just as bad as Benteke, if not worse. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have Benteke near the first XI in a perfect world, for reasons both stylistic and quantitative. But in our world, with a broken Sturridge, an Ings who's out for the year, and still-a-kid Origi? In a straight choice between 1) a 25-year-old scoring at a .4 NPG90 rate with shot numbers to back it up and a history of being a roughly 1-in-2 PL striker, and 2) a 20-year-old who has scored at a not even a quarter of that rate for us and who is something like 1-in-6 for his career, but who runs around a bit more, are we really choosing #2? There's such obvious upside to playing Benteke into form (getting a 1-in-2 striker playing like it) at almost no cost (how much more is Origi really going to give us? is his running around that essential?). At some point that paradigm will change, but we're nowhere near it.

    It's also worth pointing out that for as little as he's integrated himself into the way we play (a fair criticism), we've done little to craft a viable attack around him. Or anyone else, really, which is part of the reason I don't really understand the instinct to just keeping binning off underperforming strikers, as if they're the cause and not the symptom of a larger attacking malaise. I guess this should've been the major thrust of the post, but I'm too far in to rewrite it, so: in games where we couldn't just counter (so no Chelsea/City aways, because those are different beasts - remember Benteke looked good in those games too), we've had one game all season with a proper attack, and that was with Sturridge up top, who dragged us into attacking viability through sheer class. That's because Sturridge is one of the best strikers on the planet, and genuinely world-class. Like I said, he's a vortex: he can just pull off magic that changes and opens up games, and suddenly everyone else looks better for it, the attacking patterns look like they work when they may not with anyone else playing in them. Without Sturridge, no matter who's up top, we've looked dull. You can say that's because all of our strikers are ****, but how many **** strikers have we gone through then? At some point it makes sense to look elsewhere, in particular at our nonexistent attacking patterns. Not much creativity, not much composure, not a lot of really big chances. Benteke, let me emphasize, is part of the reason for that, but so are a lot of other people - the biggest culprit is a general lack of understanding and general lack of identity. I see no reason that our attacking play can't improve with Benteke as we pick up that understanding and identity.

    In fact, going back to the Sturridge point, we've been spoilt for world-class strikers the past few years, and I wonder how much that's papered over the genuine, fundamental and deep-lying problems in our attacking play. People like to talk about 'the way we played in '13-'14' like it was a concerted effort and not simply the result of having two world-class strikers pulling rabbits out of hats on the regular. Those strikers go away, we replace them with normal human beings (because buying world-class strikers is hard), and we find that normal humans can't pull that stuff off. So then we have to rely on our attacking patterns, and it turns out our attacking patterns are nonexistent, and we just got away with it because Suarez and Sturridge warp attacking play.

    But it's all Benteke's fault, sure. Bin him off for Origi, and when Origi looks like a 20-year-old 1-in-5 or so striker up top on his own, bin him off too, for...Ings? Who I like too, but who isn't going to solve the problems. And then go out in the transfer market, buy another roughly 1-in-2 striker for crazy money (because goals are expensive), only from Germany this time because that's sexier, and wonder why he isn't solving all our problems either. Unless we luck into Sturridge staying fit or somehow buying another top-10-in-the-world striker, there is not simple solution to this problem. In lieu of those magical cures that almost certainly aren't going to happen, we need to actually develop our attacking play: What does a Liverpool goal look like? How is it scored? Who contributes? What are the patterns? How do we get Benteke to score at that 1-in-2 rate we know is possible? How do we put out an attack conducive to those patterns? And so on.

    That happens on the training ground. It happens with time and effort. IT happens by a lot of hard work. It happens by letting your strikers get used to those around them, and vice versa, to develop relationships. It's playing Benteke through this and making a real effort to integrate him, one we don't give up at the first sign of weakness. None of that is quick or easy, but it will make us better off long-term. So it's exactly what I expect Klopp to do, and what he should do.

    Comment


      The issue is proven at Villa is just that, proven at Villa. It is hugely different to playing for us where expectations, set up and abilities required are different. The idea of premiership proven in a nonsense in my opinion.

      He has always been poor at some of the biggest issues in his game for us, including passing and the ability to take people on. His movement has criticised before we signed him too.

      We have also consistantly looked poorer in attack when we have started him.
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        The thought of setting up the whole team to suit Benteke fills me with dread.
        He can adapt his play to suit Klopps system or he can sit on the bench and be an impact sub.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Mattshark View Post
          The issue is proven at Villa is just that, proven at Villa. It is hugely different to playing for us where expectations, set up and abilities required are different. The idea of premiership proven in a nonsense in my opinion.

          He has always been poor at some of the biggest issues in his game for us, including passing and the ability to take people on. His movement has criticised before we signed him too.

          We have also consistantly looked poorer in attack when we have started him.
          Maybe Premiership proven is a nonsense, if used in the sense of Kenny's second turn. But the concept of someone being proven certainly isn't. No player perfectly relates performance at one club to another, for all of the reasons you mention and a million others, but it remains the best predictor we have. And Benteke's past performance is a strong enough predictor, paired with a record here that's far from the hopelessness spouted in this thread, to conclude that there's a reasonably high probability he's got goals in him. Maybe not enough to conclude that he's the long-term answer as a #9, but enough not to ditch him in January and start Origi instead.

          Re: passing and taking people on, I never said he was perfect or even ideal (in fact, I think the opposite). I think one of those (passing) is not a big deal (Lewandowski's ps% at BVB was 70%, plenty of Bundesliga dreamboats have ps% in the 60%s too); the other I admit is a bit of a problem. And more fundamentally his pressing is a weak point. I acknowledge all that. But if Klopp is serious about working with what he's got if at all possible, there's a lot more he can get out of Benteke. Maybe not enough that he's here in three years leading the title charge. But surely enough to deserve more patience than being written off after less than half a season for performances which, while disappointing, are hardly damning.

          I guess my fundamental disagreement is the idea that we've looked meaningfully poorer in attack when we start him. What's the sample on that, 10 games? And when we've looked better there were (what I see as) pretty clear mitigations. We looked better with Sturridge, yeah, but Sturridge is a world-class striker and not a meaningful comparison unless your plan is to buy another striker as good as Sturridge. In which case I'd love to hear your proposal, because that's hard to do. Have we looked better with Origi? I don't think so. We did look better with Firmino, but we only used that setup away to Chelsea and City - and those games were quite clearly better fits for our squad, because we could counterpress in a way that hasn't really been available to us since. Klopp is building from the back, same as he did at BVB, which means we've put in a lot of work on pressing but not a lot on attacking patterns (yet). So the games in which we've looked most fluid are the ones where we could use the counterpress as a playmaker and then simply rely on pre-established relationships (like the one between Coutinho and Firmino, who have also had extra time in the training ground) or simple class (Sturridge). I thought Benteke looked good in those games when he came on (he did score, after all) and I don't know that we'd have looked worst or lost them had he not started. I certainly don't know that he'd look any worse if he had the same amount of time to work on his relationships. Time which is obviously coming.

          Originally posted by Big-Red-Ed View Post
          The thought of setting up the whole team to suit Benteke fills me with dread.
          He can adapt his play to suit Klopps system or he can sit on the bench and be an impact sub.
          I don't think that's what needs to happen, though. There's surely a middle ground, about at least putting him in an otherwise functioning attack. Not an attack which has had about three good performances in two years and has seemingly no idea what it's about, then declaring him the fundamental problem when things don't come off.

          Making a meaningful effort to integrate a player isn't the same as setting up an entire team around him. Or at least it doesn't have to be.

          Comment


            I take your point but it's a two way thing and I see very little effort to fit in from him.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Mattshark View Post
              The issue is proven at Villa is just that, proven at Villa. It is hugely different to playing for us where expectations, set up and abilities required are different. The idea of premiership proven in a nonsense in my opinion.

              He has always been poor at some of the biggest issues in his game for us, including passing and the ability to take people on. His movement has criticised before we signed him too.

              We have also consistantly looked poorer in attack when we have started him.
              What about Ings Matt, he was doing well up until his injury and he's come from a lower ranking team than Villa. I know a lot has to do with mentality but I feel you and others are being overly critical of a guy who has not played too much for us and has done ok since being here, certainly can improve but it seems no one wants to give him a chance and that is not the Liverpool way.
              Klopp on LFC vs MUFC (March 9th 2016) - "This is why I love football. This is why we watched it when we were young. I can still not have enough of it."


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                I wasn't a fan of Ings but his attitude changed that within a couple of games. If Chris had workrate, heart and desire and showed it every minute of every game like Ings, he'd be forgiven for his other deficiencies, just like Kuyt was. His primary job is to score and he will do but if he offers nothing but a goal every so often he's not giving himself much chance of being on the pitch to score those goals. He's only first choice cos everyone else is injured, and that says a lot about somebody who went for absolute top dollar, and its not saying good things.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by G View Post
                  I wasn't a fan of Ings but his attitude changed that within a couple of games. If Chris had workrate, heart and desire and showed it every minute of every game like Ings, he'd be forgiven for his other deficiencies, just like Kuyt was. His primary job is to score and he will do but if he offers nothing but a goal every so often he's not giving himself much chance of being on the pitch to score those goals. He's only first choice cos everyone else is injured, and that says a lot about somebody who went for absolute top dollar, and its not saying good things.
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                    Originally posted by Slinky Skills View Post
                    What about Ings Matt, he was doing well up until his injury and he's come from a lower ranking team than Villa. I know a lot has to do with mentality but I feel you and others are being overly critical of a guy who has not played too much for us and has done ok since being here, certainly can improve but it seems no one wants to give him a chance and that is not the Liverpool way.
                    What G said.
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                      Originally posted by Shaggy View Post
                      One of the things I don't get. When he plays we often launch it up to him, he either loses the aerial battle or he wins the header and flicks it on to nobody. What's the point?
                      Earlier in the season he was winning everything in the air but there was no-one to flick it on to. I still think that this is a problem, if we are going to play balls in the air up to him we need players to make runs off him so that he can win the header and someone picks up the flick on. If there is no-one near him he is going to knock it down to nobody, but that isn't his fault if no-one is making the runs, though it does make him look like the one to blame.
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                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Exiled_red View Post
                        Earlier in the season he was winning everything in the air but there was no-one to flick it on to. I still think that this is a problem, if we are going to play balls in the air up to him we need players to make runs off him so that he can win the header and someone picks up the flick on. If there is no-one near him he is going to knock it down to nobody, but that isn't his fault if no-one is making the runs, though it does make him look like the one to blame.
                        The pther problem is that this is a low percentage way to play too. I don't want us to play that way.
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                          Originally posted by Fernandinho View Post
                          As much as he shows a lack of movement at times, I think he does look to get the ball into feet and move it around when it is played to him. Because he is such a big player and wins a lot of aerial duals our players get lazy and ping **** balls to him all the time which he clearly gets incredibly frustrated by, you just have to watch his reactions off the ball once it has been lost.

                          He isn't a livewire like Firmino/Coutinho and won't be going past 4 players in tight areas, but he can still move the ball around the box and doesn't just shoot on site. There were times today when he got the ball and laid it off to get it back and players played poor passes back into him.

                          I actually think he has a great touch and especially when he first started playing for us was playing great one touch balls/keeping the ball in challenges that are stacked way against him because he is so physically powerful the having defenders up his arse doesn't seem to affect his balance and ability to play, which is an incredibly underated skill.

                          He isn't as good as Sturridge that is obvious, and Firmino probably is a better fit up front for us than him at the moment(and probably Origi too), but Benteke still has a part to play in the squad.
                          yeah but he dosen't do all that you just described, he does not win enough aerial duels, doesn't do enough knockdows and sure as hell isn't great at anticipating what kind of ball will be played to him.

                          ad to the fact that he's not moblie i fail to see any use for him unless we're chasing a result in the last 20 mins and will be swinging ball after ball in the penalty area.
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                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Mattshark View Post
                            The pther problem is that this is a low percentage way to play too. I don't want us to play that way.
                            You can imagine it being integrated with our 'gegenpressing' game though to alter the percentages as we close the opposition in dangerous areas if we don't collect the flick. My problem is that when Benteke starts we seem to use the tactic far too much and lose fluency and never get our pressing started.

                            As Hemingway states we haven't had many games so perhaps we will see things change. Presently though I think he is simply a bad fit.
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                            Comment


                              If crosses onto Benteke's head is the answer we're asking the wrong question.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Big-Red-Ed View Post
                                I take your point but it's a two way thing and I see very little effort to fit in from him.
                                Me neither

                                Just looking at it though even discounting style of play and suitability the Benteke at Villa would occasionally chase things down and run the channels

                                We havent seen that from him in a Liverpool shirt

                                To me hes looked slow, sluggish, weak and lazy

                                I dont know whether he worked hard or not at Villa but he looked quick and strong he hasnt looked that here
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