Fair Play Rooney … (booing England)

[Taxi]

England fans have a history of booing: other teams national anthems, poor performances, players they don't like, players because of their build/ the way they look. They also go on rampages through towns and cities causing trouble and smashing things up add to that the racism of the 80's.

A picture is starting to emerge. It's things like this that make you ashamed to be English, and they are one of the reasons I can't really get behind England (despite being English). I watch their games but feel no strong affinity towards either the team or the fans.

I agree with most of that, but we can't keep beating ourselves up over the way things were a decade or so ago. As it was, I wasn't too gutted last night either, but I have taken a step back in my support for football as a whole these days.

[Exiled_red]

I'm talking about England as a whole, the people, not just the team thats on the pitch. Mind you, I still find it odd that LFC fans don't want to see Gerrard and Carra do well as a lot don't.

I want to see all our players do well whoever they play for.

[Exiled_red]

I agree with most of that, but we can't keep beating ourselves up over the way things were a decade or so ago. As it was, I wasn't too gutted last night either, but I have taken a step back in my support for football as a whole these days.

Only really the large scale racism has been left behind (I guess there's probably still some BNP-type fractions), the violence and trashing things is still happening there were a couple of reports last week about England fans smashing up some open air viewing areas in England While this may be different to the travelling supporters I'm not sure that has been left behind.

[Nicey]

Taxi mate, I have no problem with England .. obviously as an Irish man I have been practicing my Algerian Folk dancing this week, but hey thats part of my Job description .. Its just ever so ****ing tiring .. decade in decade out ..listening to you ****ers destroy your team ... Sweet Jesus .. the commentator last night was having a go at Calamity James .. just because he was an English Goalkeeper and almost guilty by association with Green .. its that mentality that has turn the English fans into a bunch of ****s .. and thats the ****ing nice ones ... seriously .. England expects is such a crock of **** .. you should get behind the ****ing team .. your team .. the team that is representing your country to the world ...

I'll say it again .. Fair ****ing play to Rooney .. the ****ing Mirror were calling him the Clown Prince before this game .. Sweet Jesus !! god only knows what he'll get now ...

Sure Ingerland were **** .. but not as **** as there English fans in my opinion

[Chrono]

It so does. You can split hairs all day over the quality of opposition and whether it was half-time or full-time, but it's the same thing. Your own fans booing the team in times of adversity. End of story!

As Neil said they are not consumers, they're supporters. In Istanbul at half-time there was still time to play. As things stand for England, there is time to play. Yet LFC fans sang, got behind the team and tried to lift them. England fans, in the same situation (albeit not as bad, 0-0 rather than 0-3), booed. They booed their own team!

If they were out, it was all over and there was nothing left to play for, I'd have some sympathy. But not now. You save that **** for the pub afterwards.

It's not the end of story, it's your opinion. In Istanbul the Liverpool team played with such heart and determination and were being taken apart by a fantastic team, part of the singing at half time was more a show of support that we appreciate their efforts however badly it was going.

I disagree with Neil that they are not consumers, regardless of what the product or service is you are paying for the "pleasure" of watching England play and are there to support the team. It's entertainment like anything else and if you saw a film that was as awful as that performance you would want a refund.

When they came off the pitch against the US the manager and players were in agreement that they didn't play badly(!) and that it was a case of not finishing chances which was complete nonsense.

How do you suppose a fan shows their contempt to the pathetic display that was put on? You can't write a letter to Wayne letting him know your feelings and based on previous excuses it was clear to see that they don't see that millions of people are desperate for them to make some effort, clearly if that is the grand total of their efforts then they shouldn't be professional footballers of this level. They didn't perform better in their second game nor did they improve after half time and people have heard their arrogant rhetoric about how well they are going to do in the WC and are angry that their support doesn't match the effort of the players.

It's not a simple case of them trying their hardest and coming unstuck.

[Shaggy]

It's not the end of story, it's your opinion. In Istanbul the Liverpool team played with such heart and determination and were being taken apart by a fantastic team, part of the singing at half time was more a show of support that we appreciate their efforts however badly it was going.

Completely disagree. It's the same thing with two different outcomes. And also I don't remember us playing with heart & determination in that first half. We were dire and we were getting destroyed.

Fans spent a fortune to get there - check
Fans waited years for this chance - check
Team faces major adversity after a woeful performance - check
Still time to retrieve the situation - check

One set of supporters boo and destroy their own players, the other sings and tries to lift the team.

And how any football fan can compare going to the match to support your team to going to see A FILM is utterly beyond me. Who sits there during a film cheering and singing if it's going well and it's a good one? On top of that, I've been to see many a **** film and not once have I wanted a refund.

You're a supporter. Film fans are just that, film fans, not film supporters. If you don't think there's a difference between going to the football to support your team and going to the cinema or the theatre then there's not much point in carrying on, we will never, ever agree on this!

[Rich]

Completely disagree. It's the same thing with two different outcomes. And also I don't remember us playing with heart & determination in that first half. We were dire and we were getting destroyed.

Fans spent a fortune to get there - check
Fans waited years for this chance - check
Team faces major adversity after a woeful performance - check
Still time to retrieve the situation - check

One set of supporters boo and destroy their own players, the other sings and tries to lift the team.

And how any football fan can compare going to the match to support your team to going to see A FILM is utterly beyond me. Who sits there during a film cheering and singing if it's going well and it's a good one? On top of that, I've been to see many a **** film and not once have I wanted a refund.

You're a supporter. Film fans are just that, film fans, not film supporters. If you don't think there's a difference between going to the football to support your team and going to the cinema or the theatre then there's not much point in carrying on, we will never, ever agree on this!

Gotta say I've seen Transformers 2 at the cinema and I didn't want to see the manager after the show and demand a refund!

There was plenty of booing at the fan park where I was. Terrible "support" in my opinion.

[Shaggy]

Gotta say I've seen Transformers 2 at the cinema and I didn't want to see the manager after the show and demand a refund!

There was plenty of booing at the fan park where I was. Terrible "support" in my opinion.

[Chrono]

Completely disagree. It's the same thing with two different outcomes. And also I don't remember us playing with heart & determination in that first half. We were dire and we were getting destroyed.

Fans spent a fortune to get there - check
Fans waited years for this chance - check
Team faces major adversity after a woeful performance - check
Still time to retrieve the situation - check

One set of supporters boo and destroy their own players, the other sings and tries to lift the team.

And how any football fan can compare going to the match to support your team to going to see A FILM is utterly beyond me. Who sits there during a film cheering and singing if it's going well and it's a good one? On top of that, I've been to see many a **** film and not once have I wanted a refund.

You're a supporter. Film fans are just that, film fans, not film supporters. If you don't think there's a difference between going to the football to support your team and going to the cinema or the theatre then there's not much point in carrying on, we will never, ever agree on this!

If you think Istanbul Vs England against Algeria is comparable then no, we clearly will never agree. They are so completely different in virtually every department that any comparison fails from the off imo.

The point about seeing a film was a comparison of paying for entertainment, you can draw the comparison without the facetious point of having to cheer a film. I'm also amazed you never left a film wishing you hadn't wasted your money but fair play.

We clearly don't agree

[Shaggy]

Why should you factor in the quality of the opposition before deciding if it's alright to boo?

Wishing you hadn't wasted your money is completely different to "wanting a refund" and/or booing at the end.

The circumstances are really not so different at all.

World Cup finals - the pinnacle of international football
CL final - the pinnacle of club football
Fans paid a fortune to get there
Fans waited years for it
Team having a nightmare and facing major adversity

Dispute that.

[Chrono]

The quality of opposition is not a reason to boo or not but clearly if you are playing a **** team and making no effort it is massively different from playing a great team and being outplayed. It's the effort that matters a lot.

Liverpool had played extremely well up to that point against quality opposition, this cannot be said for England even if their record was good in the qualification the opposition was up to nothing. They deserved massive support.

Gerrard did not say that not playing their best we could still beat Milan.

If Liverpool didn't play well it wasn't for lack of effort and it was because we were being outplayed, not because we couldn't strong a pass together and were making no effort.

CL - Involved knocking out quality opposition
WC - Weak qualifiers

CL - Best teams in the world
WC Group - Easily the weakest group

CL - We were underdogs and never really expected to win
WC Group - We are miles better than every team in that group

CL - Adversity wasn't based on lack of effort

WC Group - England talking about the next round, beating opposition without trying

That's me done, I don't agree with booing but I completely understand it and Rooney is a complete dick for speaking out about it but then what does it matter to him.

[Chrono]

And "dispute that?"

Is this a discussion or a point scoring exercise?

[Shaggy]

Meh. We'll have to agree to disagree. I will say however, regarding your first line, what makes you say England made no effort? They were also being outplayed, just like we were in Istanbul. I saw plenty of effort. Plenty of it. Just no quality. Big difference.

[Chrono]

Meh. We'll have to agree to disagree. I will say however, regarding your first line, what makes you say England made no effort? They were also being outplayed, just like we were in Istanbul. I saw plenty of effort. Plenty of it. Just no quality. Big difference.

Fair enough mate. I don't think we were being outplayed as I don't think Algeria were really capable of it and mostly everything broke down because of losing the ball

Ignore the point scoring bit, apologies.

[Shaggy]

And "dispute that?"

Is this a discussion or a point scoring exercise?

No I was asking you to dispute it - they are all perfectly valid parallels which in my opinion are indisputable. The situation is demonstrably comparable. Even at its most basic level it's a football match and the teams own fans booed. No matter how you qualify it or make excuses for it, it's never, ever acceptable. You obviously disagree and that's where this debate ends.