Not liking the reports coming out from Athens

[Lecter]

I totally agree Lec - you can't change people's nature.

However, the argument that it's the police/authorities/UEFAs fault and NOT 'people's nature' seems very harsh IMO. See DJS's analogy re. blaming a car company for people stealing cars...

I think we just have to accept that those fans make the vast majority look bad. And that's a shame.

UEFA is responsible for organising the event

Police are responsible for policing the event

I'm not advocating the fans behaviour but authorities should be there to deal with any likely eventual circumstances and have measures in place to deal with situations

UEFA have blamed us and they are right in part, but they should also look at themselves and the host nations authorities and find a solution to the problem

The climate we live in these days is that nobody is prepared to stand up and take responsibility. We would all much rather moralise and shift the blame elsewhere

Fans shouldnt try to bunk in, touts shouldnt sell tickets and forgers shouldnt make dodgy tickets but thats not reality

UEFA and the authorities dont appear willing to accept reality and dont appear willing to put in place procedures to prevented these things occurring

[alunevans]

Yes, that's exactly the argument.

I really want that car, I didn't get one or can't afford one - **** it I'll steal it instead.

Fans coming home at JLA on SKy Sports at the moment are saying a lot of the pushing was coming from ticketed fans either not being allowed in at all, or not being allowed in quickly enough and panicking they'd miss the match.

[reddragon]

UEFA is responsible for organising the event

Police are responsible for policing the event

I'm not advocating the fans behaviour but authorities should be there to deal with any likely even / circumstances and have measures in place to deal with situations

UEFA have blamed us and they are right in part, but they should also look at themselves and the host nations authorities and find a solution to the problem

The climate we live in these days is that nobody is prepared to stand up and take responsibility. We would all much rather moralise and shift the blame elsewhere

Fans shouldnt try to bunk in, touts shouldnt sell tickets and forgers shouldnt make dodgy tickets but thats not reality

UEFA and the authorities dont appear willing to accept reality and dont appear willing to put in place procedures to prevented these things occurring

the police had no plan B at all last night

[dom9]

Sorry about that

Just pissed me off to hear all the stuff that's gone on. (pissed off with some fans as well as Uefa)

My sentiments exactly

[reddragon]

Fans coming home at JLA on SKy Sports at the moment are saying a lot of the pushing was coming from ticketed fans either not being allowed in at all, or not being allowed in quickly enough and panicking they'd miss the match.

those ticketed fans had no idea that the stadium was already full of forged / bunking in fans had they? Apparently the gate had gone in at half four in the afternoon - most of us were still in town then

[alunevans]

agree with this wholeheartedly.

i was going in about 3/4 hr before kick off with my dad, brother and a mate. Up until this point all was well, the walk there was on a nice wide road [bit like wembley way] and everyone was enjoying it. We got to the last checkpoint [i hasten to add we all had legit tickets] and were funnelled into a tiny checkpoint [about 2-3mtr wide]. There was lots of confusion and pushing and shoving as nobody knew what the **** was happening. We all got seperated. On the other side of the checkpoint i met up with my brother and we started to wait for the other two. Suddenly, the police closed the checkpoint to maybe 1 mtr wide by driving a bus across it. I could not beleive my eyes - they were creating the crush in front of us and no manner of pleading and taking with them would stop them.
There must have been 150 coppers there - easily enough to create a wide police line type of cordon which would have spread the crush out more - but oh no all they were interested in was battering people who tried to escape the crush. I could hear screams etc. and at this point i, and a few others who were there, were getting VERY worried for the safety of people in this crush.

Anyhow my dad finally got through. We were in tears at this point 'just like the bad old days' We waited and waited but our mate never turned up so we legged it into the ground. Our turnstile had been closed and there were no stewards or police or anything around to let us know why. People milling around there were saying the turnstile things were electronic and they'd broke, so everyone was up and over the turnstile. Once in i again got very scared. The walkway was absolutely crammed and i was thinking that if more people were coming over the gate then a surge that could be very nasty was inevitable. We decided to stay were we were for 10 mins before i tried to get to our seats to see if our mate had got through another way. Needless to say other people were sitting in our seats so at 1/2 time i made my way back up to where me dad and brother where.

Our mate had just come in the ground at this point, all the gates had been opened. He had come through the checkpoint but not before being attacked by a police baton charge and cs gas spray.

The whole day was a ****ing joke anyway. The last time i go to a Euro away.

And I'll believe your account before I'll believe William Gaillard mate

[Lecter]

those ticketed fans had no idea that the stadium was already full of forged / bunking in fans had they? Apparently the gate had gone in at half four in the afternoon - most of us were still in town then

The gates only opened at 5pm UK time

They showed it on Sky and showed the inside of the stadium at the same time with a bout 10 or 15 fans just entering

It was full by about 6.00 -6.30pm UK time

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

there is a case for british stewards and police to be over there though, and consulted on. Remember we take a LOT of fans to these games. It seems to me that Liverpool, United and Celtic are the 3 teams that do this in Europe [witness Milan - one of the biggest clubs in Europe but cant even sell their own allocation]. Correct me if i'm wrong about this - maybe Munich, Barca etc may fall into this category too.

The FA Cup creates a huge black market every year, but is there ever any of these problems in Cardiff or now at Wembley - NO!! This is because the British police are experts at controlling big football crowds.

Maybe the British police are more tuned into the culture of our fans. We are not used to heavy handed police actions in this day and age, and our foreign counterparts won't appear so cocky when faced with authority. It is a sad fact that a small minority will always abuse the good nature of others. Unfortunately the crowd becomes a collective mass whether it's at a footy match, the January sales, a London Underground disaster or a school tuck shop. People will take advantage and get to their target quicker than others if they can. I assume that the home crowds are dealt with by firm but sometimes humorous police when the mood is healthy.

Should problems arise then the police take a different approach. I would never go back to the days of queueing to get into the Kop in the 1980's and being trampled all over by a police horse, but barring the huge mass of the horse, I always felt safe in the queue. Change the scenario to a foreign country where we tend to disregard the locals and stick together, then the picture changes rapidly. The same small minority will always take advantage of a situation that has been imposed by the political, commercial and perhaps xenophobic nature of the UEFA set up and allocations procedure. If anyone wants me to explain this post further, then feel free to ask. But please don't say it means you're a proper scouser if you bunk in.

[reddragon]

The gates only opened at 5pm UK time

They showed it on Sky and showed the inside of the stadium at the same time with a bout 10 or 15 fans just entering

It was full by about 6.00 -6.30pm UK time

i stand corrected
not that it matters to me when it was - the gate was there 3/4 hr before kick off when we went in, and that was when the crush and the baton weilding cs gas throwing police had a go.

[Neil Young]

Maybe the British police are more tuned into the culture of our fans. We are not used to heavy handed police actions in this day and age, and our foreign counterparts won't appear so cocky when faced with authority. It is a sad fact that a small minority will always abuse the good nature of others. Unfortunately the crowd becomes a collective mass whether it's at a footy match, the January sales, a London Underground disaster or a school tuck shop. People will take advantage and get to their target quicker than others if they can. I assume that the home crowds are dealt with by firm but sometimes humorous police when the mood is healthy.

Should problems arise then the police take a different approach. I would never go back to the days of queueing to get into the Kop in the 1980's and being trampled all over by a police horse, but barring the huge mass of the horse, I always felt safe in the queue. Change the scenario to a foreign country where we tend to disregard the locals and stick together, then the picture changes rapidly. The same small minority will always take advantage of a situation that has been imposed by the political, commercial and perhaps xenophobic nature of the UEFA set up and allocations procedure. If anyone wants me to explain this post further, then feel free to ask. But please don't say it means you're a proper scouser if you bunk in.

I was about to post something similar about the cultural issues but fortunately for all concerned I won't bother now.

[alunevans]

Did you go with a legit ticket ?

you clearly don't read what he wrote cos he said in his original piece that he did.

[lfcruleus]

Just my twopenneth,

Had a really good day all in all, up until going to the ground, we all had genuine tickets and did all get into the ground but it was by now means pleasant.
There was 3 checkpoints, the first being a quarter of a mile away just after the station, this one was OK for us, because they werent really checking the tickets so no crush.
The second one was a problem as they started checking properly and trying to refuse entry to people, bizarrly i was stood next to Michael Howard at this point and some lad from Huyton who vocally thought the reason there was so many people there was that we have so many knobheads that support Liverpool who arent white Liverpudlian males if you know what i mean, If i could have got to him, I wouldnt have made it to the ground. The police narrowed the gaps between them only allowing one person through each gap. This was OK except, as someone has already said, people get Impatient, especially when they have blag tickets. Big push and crush just like Istanbul, I had to get my mates 9 year old on my shoulders, just like i have had to do in Cardiff before now. We actually got through here okish as we had the boy and 2 girls with us and kicked off about people pushing kids.
The 3rd checkpoint was a joke, they were completely panicing by now (the police) and checking some tickets properly but not most, a lad i know just walked straight through and his ticket was never even asked for, mine was checked and actually scanned. Again we got through OK.
The one thing i would say about the organisation is that the security in theory was way better than Istanbul, they just didnt know how to cope with the fact so many people were determined to get into the ground illegally, until they cracked out the tear gas that is.
To be honest some of the things i saw outside the ground and in it have made me ashamed to be called a Liverpool fan and i will not go to a European Final again unless they have the sense to play at a ground with Turnstiles and queuing barriers. Our support will spend the next month defending themselves and bemoaning our innocence but there was wrong on both sides. UEFA because they chose the wrong ground for an English club with large support to play at, and our fans as some people in life think they just have the right to do things and take stuff just because its there. I dont blame the police, the only way they could have solved it would be to let everyone in, and what could have happenned then?
Its all resulted in one guy I know with a genuine ticket who didnt get in, protested and got battered for his protests, another mate getting robbed off his ticket by a scally, and oh we did actually lose a European Cup Final.
Dont even start me on the the planes home.

[reddragon]

And I'll believe your account before I'll believe William Gaillard mate

mate it was ****ing scary out there. i spent a fortune and saw about 10 minutes of the game. i spent the whole of the 2nd half outside trying to comfort a 23 year old girl who'd been teargassed outside in the crush.
i can honestly say i've never cared less about the result of match than last night [heysel excepted]

[Guest]

you clearly don't read what he wrote cos he said in his original piece that he did.

No I haven't read everything word by word, more scanning posts.

Anyway, are you short of argument ?

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

I was about to post something similar about the cultural issues but fortunately for all concerned I won't bother now.

Cheers Neil. I might look like a prat with my posts on here, but I do study the nature of crowds quite a bit.