Now then, for the love of god, please get the message rafa...

[AFII]

We don't know what is going on in training. Crouch could be piss poor and not care that much as far as we know and Kuyt could be excellent and work his socks off, then Rafa have been right playing Kuyt before Crouch.

The point is that we don't know the whole picture.

Crouch didn't deserve to start any games at the beginning of the season after his so called performances in the friendly games. He had a piss poor attitude and didn't care at all on the pitch.

Maybe he have changed now and that is why Rafa is now playing him more.

[Dhav]

For a top 4 team, for a genuine title challenger, Crouch is a squad player at best, not a fist teamer. I'd be happy keeping him as an option to come off the bench if he continues to show the same goal scoring prowess/threat off the bench that he has this season, but he should really expect no more than that. To be honest, I'd be happy selling both Kuyt and Crouch to bring in one top class striker.

[Skillz]

Eh? I'm a huge fan of Crouch and if i was in Rafa's shoes, i wouldnt be considering selling him to City or anyone else, unless they offered silly money.

Crouch is a top class attacking threat and i'd be playing him virtually every week if it was my decision.

Dunno where you get the idea that i'd want him out the door, i've been a fan of Crouch for a good while.

I was having an unneccessary dig at you DJ. Crouch got massive support from Rafa and he has his status in the game due to Rafa. Rafa has tried the same faith in Dirk. easily understandable because if Dirk turns it around he has a player again.

My main point however is that Crouch is meant to play in Torres spot from what I can see and Kuyt/Crow play the other. It has now reached a point that Rafa has had to decide Dirk isn't turning it around and he has had to change his game plan.

Apologies though cos my post was OTT.

[Skillz]

Dont listen to what Skillz says, i wouldnt be looking to sell Crouch. Even if we signed a Villa type of striker, i'd keep Crouch as 3rd choice.

He's a class act on and off the pitch.

Nor would I DJ. He is a great 3rd or 4th striker. I was just using Rafa's faith in him which paid dividends in the long run as a measure for Rafa's faith in Dirk, which hasn't, unfortunately.

[Craig_H]

I agree that if he was starting more regularly, and managed to build a rhythm and momentum then his performances when he does start would be of a much higher calibre. However, on the other hand you could argue that for someone who has been used sparingly he hasn't seized his opportunity to force his way into the manager's plans when he has started.

I just dont think last season's form can be used as an indicator for this season's performances. I mean Kuyt scored something like 18 goals last season didn't he? Just becasue a player plays well one season it doesn't necessarily follow he'll reproduce it the following season. I think Crouch's attitude, commitment, work-rate have been noticeably different this season to last.

Seize the opportunity or not, asking a striker to play one game, miss the next two, play the next, miss the next three and then play the one after...AND to score goals...well, it's pie in the sky mate, completely unrealistic to ask that.

As for last season, Kuyt got 14 goals in all comps. And if you're not going to give him proper game time THIS season, what else CAN you go on? Last season, as it's the most recent example of him having proper games and it's a fair thing to base it on.

Attitude, commitment and work rate from Crouch havent been at all noticably different, there were some comments alluding to a problem with Crouch's attitude from Rafa and without any substance behind it, people just swallowed it. He hasnt whinged to the media, in fact whenever he's interviewed, he seems to keep saying he's happy and wants to stay & fight for his place. No evidence whatsoever of Crouch having a poor attitude. It was a weak excuse Rafa used as justification for dropping him and people have blindly bought it.

[Craig_H]

We don't know what is going on in training. Crouch could be piss poor and not care that much as far as we know and Kuyt could be excellent and work his socks off, then Rafa have been right playing Kuyt before Crouch.

The point is that we don't know the whole picture.

Crouch didn't deserve to start any games at the beginning of the season after his so called performances in the friendly games. He had a piss poor attitude and didn't care at all on the pitch.

Maybe he have changed now and that is why Rafa is now playing him more.

'Didnt care'...well, at least the 'we dont know' part of your post applies somewhere...

As for training, it doesnt mean anything if someone works in training, only to be inept on the field for matches. Crouch produces in the games. If kuyt works his arse off for the piddly five-a-sides in training, bully for him. He doesnt come close to delivering nearly enough in games. That is the important part.

[Craig_H]

I was having an unneccessary dig at you DJ. Crouch got massive support from Rafa and he has his status in the game due to Rafa. Rafa has tried the same faith in Dirk. easily understandable because if Dirk turns it around he has a player again.

My main point however is that Crouch is meant to play in Torres spot from what I can see and Kuyt/Crow play the other. It has now reached a point that Rafa has had to decide Dirk isn't turning it around and he has had to change his game plan.

Apologies though cos my post was OTT.

No probs, it just confused me

I dont buy this whole 'Crouch owes Rafa everything' stuff though. Rafa is paid to pick the best players and Crouch (eventually) proved that he deserves to play on merit. Rafa kept faith with him, fair enough. Likewise, Crouch played a big part in helping us win games and trophies, so if one wanted to turn it around, you could say Rafa owes Crouch for scoring important goals for him. Naturally, it's silly though. Neither owes the other anything, other than fair treatment, respect and professionalism.

Crouch hasnt been on the receiving end of at least two of those, however.

[Craig_H]

Nor would I DJ. He is a great 3rd or 4th striker. I was just using Rafa's faith in him which paid dividends in the long run as a measure for Rafa's faith in Dirk, which hasn't, unfortunately.

No problem with rafa keeping faith with Kuyt, as he did with Crouch. But there comes a point where you have to stop making decisions to the detriment of the team and results. Rafa hasnt stopped. He keeps picking Kuyt and it's cost us points after points. Rafa's desire to keep faith in Kuyt has played a significant role in putting us out of the title race by the halfway point

[fah-q]

'Didnt care'...well, at least the 'we dont know' part of your post applies somewhere...

As for training, it doesnt mean anything if someone works in training, only to be inept on the field for matches. Crouch produces in the games. If kuyt works his arse off for the piddly five-a-sides in training, bully for him. He doesnt come close to delivering nearly enough in games. That is the important part.

I agree, it reminds me a bit of the Smicer situation with GH. He was reckoned top be great in training but lacked the confidence to do it in big games.

[Craig_H]

He didnt do it in many of the small games either

I wouldnt mind if Kuyt delivered against 7th-20th placed sides in the league and got it wrong in the 'big' games. But he doesnt even do it in the 'small' games.

[fah-q]

Sorry scratch the "Big" bit of that.

[Craig_H]

Sorry scratch the "Big" bit of that.

Sad but true.

[bigfooty]

Torres wasn't awful but he wasn't great either, it was like a lot of recent games for him I felt in that his touch seemed off. The goal he scored was much more like the Nando we saw in the first couple of months of this season.

[Exiled_red]

Sad but true.

Having said that he was there to be counted in Istanbul ... so I can more or less forgive him anything for that!

[Craig_H]

Having said that he was there to be counted in Istanbul ... so I can more or less forgive him anything for that!

Well yes, Istanbul granted forgiveness for a fair few failures...

Alliteration, dont ya just love it