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    #76
    Originally posted by Vermilion View Post
    True..or winning the Champions league...or even getting to two finals.
    What does that have to do with challenging for the league title, the remit of a Liverpool manager? Again, you can only point to anomolies of rafa's achievements, rather than any 'pattern'.

    I'd gladly swap what Rafa's achieved for us, with what Wenger's achieved with Arsenal.

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      #77
      Originally posted by Lecter View Post
      Seriously though when Rafa took over did you expect to challenge for the title that first season??

      I know what you are saying in terms of his tenure but sometimes people need to think seriously

      To me managers have to have a period of "grace"

      FFS even Paisley got that
      Yes i am speaking in terms of his tenure and yes i'm thinking seriously when i say that one title challenge in six years isnt good enough.

      How many decades does this grace period last? Wenger won the double in his first season, with Rioch's squad of flops.

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        #78
        Originally posted by Craig_H View Post
        That's kinda the point though, i'm convinced that if we played with an attacking mindset, we WOULDNT be in this position.
        Newcastle played attacking football under Keegan

        Yet still struggled in the Premiership (apart from one season)
        Bob Paisley - "This club has been my life. I'd go out and sweep the street and be proud to do it for Liverpool if they asked me to."

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          #79
          Originally posted by Craig_H View Post
          What does that have to do with challenging for the league title, the remit of a Liverpool manager? Again, you can only point to anomolies of rafa's achievements, rather than any 'pattern'.

          I'd gladly swap what Rafa's achieved for us, with what Wenger's achieved with Arsenal.
          From the time Rafa has been here ? i wouldn't...and the prem has got a lot harder since then.

          Comment


            #80
            Originally posted by Craig_H View Post
            Yes i am speaking in terms of his tenure and yes i'm thinking seriously when i say that one title challenge in six years isnt good enough.

            How many decades does this grace period last? Wenger won the double in his first season, with Rioch's squad of flops.
            I reckon a manager gets at least 12 months grace

            Otherwise we would have canned Paisley in his first season

            To me the amount of times we have challenged isnt good enough but I still find it difficult to imagine any other manager doing significantly better all things considered

            IMO no matter who is in charge unless we invest more (in NETT terms) than we have done during Rafa's entire tenure then we will nearly always be also rans

            We just havent invested enough
            Bob Paisley - "This club has been my life. I'd go out and sweep the street and be proud to do it for Liverpool if they asked me to."

            Comment


              #81
              Originally posted by Lecter View Post
              Newcastle played attacking football under Keegan

              Yet still struggled in the Premiership (apart from one season)
              Right, so if you play attacking football, you can only produce leves of success akin to Keegan

              Add it all up, take all things into consideration and pinpoint one anomoly after another - it still doesnt mean one title challenge in 6 years is good enough for us.

              Re the 'attacking football' thing - i'm more talking about an attacking mindset - rather than 'gung ho' football - or maybe not even that, maybe 'winning mindset' is a better way of putting it. Rafa doesnt have that, i want a manager who does.

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                #82
                Originally posted by Craig_H View Post
                That's kinda the point though, i'm convinced that if we played with an attacking mindset, we WOULDNT be in this position.

                You can point to arsenal to back up your argument, but i dont recall them ever failing to qualify for the CL under Wenger, so the comparison doesnt hold up.
                Sorry but have to disagree with you there, how many times since Rafa took charge have Arsenal challenged for the title? More to the point what have they won in that time? Proof enough attacking football doesn't always bring success. It should also be pointed out that the only reason they qualified last season was because those in the hunt for 4th bottled it.
                Liverpool FC re-established 15th October 2010

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                  #83
                  Originally posted by Lecter View Post
                  I reckon a manager gets at least 12 months grace

                  Otherwise we would have canned Paisley in his first season

                  To me the amount of times we have challenged isnt good enough but I still find it difficult to imagine any other manager doing significantly better all things considered

                  IMO no matter who is in charge unless we invest more (in NETT terms) than we have done during Rafa's entire tenure then we will nearly always be also rans

                  We just havent invested enough

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Originally posted by Craig_H View Post
                    What does that have to do with challenging for the league title, the remit of a Liverpool manager? Again, you can only point to anomolies of rafa's achievements, rather than any 'pattern'.

                    I'd gladly swap what Rafa's achieved for us, with what Wenger's achieved with Arsenal.
                    I wonder how much grace you would give Wenger??

                    He hasnt won a trophy for 5 or 6 years, plays attractive attacking football and has probably only challenged for the title twice in the last 6 years
                    Bob Paisley - "This club has been my life. I'd go out and sweep the street and be proud to do it for Liverpool if they asked me to."

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Originally posted by Lecter View Post
                      I reckon a manager gets at least 12 months grace

                      Otherwise we would have canned Paisley in his first season

                      To me the amount of times we have challenged isnt good enough but I still find it difficult to imagine any other manager doing significantly better all things considered

                      IMO no matter who is in charge unless we invest more (in NETT terms) than we have done during Rafa's entire tenure then we will nearly always be also rans

                      We just havent invested enough
                      I'd rather try something that MIGHT work and hasnt yet proven to be a failure, than continue with the same failed method.

                      I agree that we havent invested enough but the problem is that rafa doesnt utilise what he DOES have well enough.

                      We dont need £80m worth of quality added to our squad, to be able to beat the dross that's taken points off us this season.

                      Teams in the bottom half manage to win at Pompey, Wolves, Wigan, Fulham etc, yet we cant. That failure isnt down to a lack of funds, it's down to the woefully inept utilisation of our current squad and a cowardly footballing mentality of trying to pinch a win against ****e & vastly inferior sides to us.

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Originally posted by Craig_H View Post
                        Right, so if you play attacking football, you can only produce leves of success akin to Keegan

                        Add it all up, take all things into consideration and pinpoint one anomoly after another - it still doesnt mean one title challenge in 6 years is good enough for us.

                        Re the 'attacking football' thing - i'm more talking about an attacking mindset - rather than 'gung ho' football - or maybe not even that, maybe 'winning mindset' is a better way of putting it. Rafa doesnt have that, i want a manager who does.
                        Dont be daft but its an example that just by playing attacking football doesnt mean a general level of improvement in results

                        Equally Wenger has great attacking footballing sides but wins **** all
                        Bob Paisley - "This club has been my life. I'd go out and sweep the street and be proud to do it for Liverpool if they asked me to."

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Originally posted by Lecter View Post
                          I wonder how much grace you would give Wenger??

                          He hasnt won a trophy for 5 or 6 years, plays attractive attacking football and has probably only challenged for the title twice in the last 6 years
                          He also refuses to change the way his team plays no matter what the situation, hence they got stuffed by Barca.

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Originally posted by Craig_H View Post
                            Right, so if you play attacking football, you can only produce leves of success akin to Keegan

                            Add it all up, take all things into consideration and pinpoint one anomoly after another - it still doesnt mean one title challenge in 6 years is good enough for us.

                            Re the 'attacking football' thing - i'm more talking about an attacking mindset - rather than 'gung ho' football - or maybe not even that, maybe 'winning mindset' is a better way of putting it. Rafa doesnt have that, i want a manager who does.
                            Where do you get this stuff...Rafa plays to lose eh ? Crazy, even if he sets his sides up differently...it's with a view to winning the game.

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Originally posted by Lecter View Post
                              I wonder how much grace you would give Wenger??

                              He hasnt won a trophy for 5 or 6 years, plays attractive attacking football and has probably only challenged for the title twice in the last 6 years
                              Wenger's proven that he is capable of winning & challenging for the PL title - Rafa isnt. THAT is the point.

                              Arsenal havent won anything for years, but they havent had to make do with just one title challenge in 6 years and their fans KNOW for a fact that their manager has what it takes and knows what's required to challenge for the title consistently and win it. We do not have that, and IMO never will.

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Originally posted by Reece View Post
                                He also refuses to change the way his team plays no matter what the situation, hence they got stuffed by Barca.
                                Exactly people on this site are completely blinkered at times

                                Spurs for instance played brilliant attacking football back end of the 70's and early 80's yet NEVER challanged for the title, yet Liverpool under Paisley who were disciplined, methodic and played a VERY similar system / ethos to Rafa's teams dominated

                                I'd also say that even Forest who won the title and two European Cups went out with a defensive mentality yet still achieved massive success
                                Bob Paisley - "This club has been my life. I'd go out and sweep the street and be proud to do it for Liverpool if they asked me to."

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