Benítez says he needs fresh investment to compete for title

[Craig_H]

True..or winning the Champions league...or even getting to two finals.

What does that have to do with challenging for the league title, the remit of a Liverpool manager? Again, you can only point to anomolies of rafa's achievements, rather than any 'pattern'.

I'd gladly swap what Rafa's achieved for us, with what Wenger's achieved with Arsenal.

[Craig_H]

Seriously though when Rafa took over did you expect to challenge for the title that first season??

I know what you are saying in terms of his tenure but sometimes people need to think seriously

To me managers have to have a period of "grace"

FFS even Paisley got that

Yes i am speaking in terms of his tenure and yes i'm thinking seriously when i say that one title challenge in six years isnt good enough.

How many decades does this grace period last? Wenger won the double in his first season, with Rioch's squad of flops.

[Lecter]

That's kinda the point though, i'm convinced that if we played with an attacking mindset, we WOULDNT be in this position.

Newcastle played attacking football under Keegan

Yet still struggled in the Premiership (apart from one season)

[Vermilion]

What does that have to do with challenging for the league title, the remit of a Liverpool manager? Again, you can only point to anomolies of rafa's achievements, rather than any 'pattern'.

I'd gladly swap what Rafa's achieved for us, with what Wenger's achieved with Arsenal.

From the time Rafa has been here ? i wouldn't...and the prem has got a lot harder since then.

[Lecter]

Yes i am speaking in terms of his tenure and yes i'm thinking seriously when i say that one title challenge in six years isnt good enough.

How many decades does this grace period last? Wenger won the double in his first season, with Rioch's squad of flops.

I reckon a manager gets at least 12 months grace

Otherwise we would have canned Paisley in his first season

To me the amount of times we have challenged isnt good enough but I still find it difficult to imagine any other manager doing significantly better all things considered

IMO no matter who is in charge unless we invest more (in NETT terms) than we have done during Rafa's entire tenure then we will nearly always be also rans

We just havent invested enough

[Craig_H]

Newcastle played attacking football under Keegan

Yet still struggled in the Premiership (apart from one season)

Right, so if you play attacking football, you can only produce leves of success akin to Keegan

Add it all up, take all things into consideration and pinpoint one anomoly after another - it still doesnt mean one title challenge in 6 years is good enough for us.

Re the 'attacking football' thing - i'm more talking about an attacking mindset - rather than 'gung ho' football - or maybe not even that, maybe 'winning mindset' is a better way of putting it. Rafa doesnt have that, i want a manager who does.

[SRR]

That's kinda the point though, i'm convinced that if we played with an attacking mindset, we WOULDNT be in this position.

You can point to arsenal to back up your argument, but i dont recall them ever failing to qualify for the CL under Wenger, so the comparison doesnt hold up.

Sorry but have to disagree with you there, how many times since Rafa took charge have Arsenal challenged for the title? More to the point what have they won in that time? Proof enough attacking football doesn't always bring success. It should also be pointed out that the only reason they qualified last season was because those in the hunt for 4th bottled it.

[Vermilion]

I reckon a manager gets at least 12 months grace

Otherwise we would have canned Paisley in his first season

To me the amount of times we have challenged isnt good enough but I still find it difficult to imagine any other manager doing significantly better all things considered

IMO no matter who is in charge unless we invest more (in NETT terms) than we have done during Rafa's entire tenure then we will nearly always be also rans

We just havent invested enough

[Lecter]

What does that have to do with challenging for the league title, the remit of a Liverpool manager? Again, you can only point to anomolies of rafa's achievements, rather than any 'pattern'.

I'd gladly swap what Rafa's achieved for us, with what Wenger's achieved with Arsenal.

I wonder how much grace you would give Wenger??

He hasnt won a trophy for 5 or 6 years, plays attractive attacking football and has probably only challenged for the title twice in the last 6 years

[Craig_H]

I reckon a manager gets at least 12 months grace

Otherwise we would have canned Paisley in his first season

To me the amount of times we have challenged isnt good enough but I still find it difficult to imagine any other manager doing significantly better all things considered

IMO no matter who is in charge unless we invest more (in NETT terms) than we have done during Rafa's entire tenure then we will nearly always be also rans

We just havent invested enough

I'd rather try something that MIGHT work and hasnt yet proven to be a failure, than continue with the same failed method.

I agree that we havent invested enough but the problem is that rafa doesnt utilise what he DOES have well enough.

We dont need £80m worth of quality added to our squad, to be able to beat the dross that's taken points off us this season.

Teams in the bottom half manage to win at Pompey, Wolves, Wigan, Fulham etc, yet we cant. That failure isnt down to a lack of funds, it's down to the woefully inept utilisation of our current squad and a cowardly footballing mentality of trying to pinch a win against ****e & vastly inferior sides to us.

[Lecter]

Right, so if you play attacking football, you can only produce leves of success akin to Keegan

Add it all up, take all things into consideration and pinpoint one anomoly after another - it still doesnt mean one title challenge in 6 years is good enough for us.

Re the 'attacking football' thing - i'm more talking about an attacking mindset - rather than 'gung ho' football - or maybe not even that, maybe 'winning mindset' is a better way of putting it. Rafa doesnt have that, i want a manager who does.

Dont be daft but its an example that just by playing attacking football doesnt mean a general level of improvement in results

Equally Wenger has great attacking footballing sides but wins **** all

[Reece]

I wonder how much grace you would give Wenger??

He hasnt won a trophy for 5 or 6 years, plays attractive attacking football and has probably only challenged for the title twice in the last 6 years

He also refuses to change the way his team plays no matter what the situation, hence they got stuffed by Barca.

[Vermilion]

Right, so if you play attacking football, you can only produce leves of success akin to Keegan

Add it all up, take all things into consideration and pinpoint one anomoly after another - it still doesnt mean one title challenge in 6 years is good enough for us.

Re the 'attacking football' thing - i'm more talking about an attacking mindset - rather than 'gung ho' football - or maybe not even that, maybe 'winning mindset' is a better way of putting it. Rafa doesnt have that, i want a manager who does.

Where do you get this stuff...Rafa plays to lose eh ? Crazy, even if he sets his sides up differently...it's with a view to winning the game.

[Craig_H]

I wonder how much grace you would give Wenger??

He hasnt won a trophy for 5 or 6 years, plays attractive attacking football and has probably only challenged for the title twice in the last 6 years

Wenger's proven that he is capable of winning & challenging for the PL title - Rafa isnt. THAT is the point.

Arsenal havent won anything for years, but they havent had to make do with just one title challenge in 6 years and their fans KNOW for a fact that their manager has what it takes and knows what's required to challenge for the title consistently and win it. We do not have that, and IMO never will.

[Lecter]

He also refuses to change the way his team plays no matter what the situation, hence they got stuffed by Barca.

Exactly people on this site are completely blinkered at times

Spurs for instance played brilliant attacking football back end of the 70's and early 80's yet NEVER challanged for the title, yet Liverpool under Paisley who were disciplined, methodic and played a VERY similar system / ethos to Rafa's teams dominated

I'd also say that even Forest who won the title and two European Cups went out with a defensive mentality yet still achieved massive success