Lucas and the evaluation of players performance

[Mattshark]

Mascherano Liverpool 178 81%
Diamé Wigan 176 71%
Muamba Bolton 152 67%
Lucas Liverpool 148 69%
Petrov Aston Villa 143 76%

Passers Team Passes Accuracy
Ferguson Birmingham 2169 80%
Mascherano Liverpool 2115 83%
Lampard Chelsea 1927 81%
Terry Chelsea 1906 87%
Lucas Liverpool 1832 84%

well according to those stats.....terry passes more and is more succesful, hardly a good basis to have an arguement on.......

But as a centre back, passing is very different to that in midfield, even defensive midfield. A lot of Lucas' passing is forward towards Gerrard or the wing, as the Guardian chalkboard shows. Comparatively, Terry's, I would guess will show passes into the DM, be that Essien or Mikel.

[Mattshark]

but then i think you need more than just a tackle and short pass to be succesful in that role?

he just doesnt have enough to his game to be playing week in, week out for us.

So do I, Lucas is good with the ball at his feet and moves well with the ball, and when he does attack has shown he can be useful.

[Kenneth]

I think operation was saying he is average LIKE a lot of other CM's in the premiership or thats my thoguhts anyway

Mascherano Liverpool 178 81%
Diamé Wigan 176 71%
Muamba Bolton 152 67%
Lucas Liverpool 148 69%
Petrov Aston Villa 143 76%

mascherano excluded, are any of the others on that list suitable candidates for a Liverpool starting place? How about Ferguson from Birmingham? His pass accuracy is also top notch.

[Mattshark]

Mascherano Liverpool 178 81%
Diamé Wigan 176 71%
Muamba Bolton 152 67%
Lucas Liverpool 148 69%
Petrov Aston Villa 143 76%

mascherano excluded, are any of the others on that list suitable candidates for a Liverpool starting place? How about Ferguson from Birmingham? His pass accuracy is also top notch.

Only two players are on both lists are they not?

Still waiting to hear a good evaluative reason why Lucas is average.

[Kenneth]

Only two players are on both lists are they not?

Still waiting to hear a good evaluative reason why Lucas is average.

Indeed. But as neither list seems to give an indication of quality, I don't think that says all that much.

If you think Lucas is great, ahead of his peers around the league, then that's fine. We only hve opinion to go on based on what we've seen of him. We've either seen different things or we interpret than differently.

[Mattshark]

Indeed. But as neither list seems to give an indication of quality, I don't think that says all that much.

As a starting point to a lot of the common criticism on here, it does.

Still waiting to hear what you think is wrong with his game as a DM.

[Kenneth]

As a starting point to a lot of the common criticism on here, it does.

Still waiting to hear what you think is wrong with his game as a DM.

I've said that I think he should be a squad player for us in that position, so I don't see too much wrong with his game in that position. His positioning isn't as strong as Macherano's, Mascher is always in the right place to press the recipient of a pass. His sliding tackling is nowhere near that of Mascherano, or Gerrard. Now sliding isn't always the best option, but it should be an option. It also build confidence on the pitch and in the stands. He doesn't have strong shot, or the confidence to try. He has a great engine, very fit, which is a big plus as he is a mobile player. There are pros and cons to his game, and overall, he's alright as a holding player.

[red g]

Only two players are on both lists are they not?

Still waiting to hear a good evaluative reason why Lucas is average.

you believe he is a holding midfielder?

well i dont think he is great at tackling like mascherano, i dont think he is box to box like essien, i dont think he has vision like alonso these are all great holding midfielders.

I think most midfielders in the premiership could come in and have the same effect as lucas on our team.

there is the water carrier role and i think he does break up play well, but then he doesnt do enough with it afterwards. The reason he is average is becuase i cant name many worse than him in the premiership, can you?

[Galb]

That is a fair point. I don't think that Lucas is as limited in passing as some make out. My theory would be that along with his excellent short passing Lucas makes very good straight high odd passes to attacking midfielders making runs ahead of him and to the wings. He almost never switches play or plays high balls over players.

This has positive and negative points - players who like the ball into feet in particular benefit and the team with tend to cycle/recycle the ball more with him in the midfield allowing other more creative players to pick their moment to attack. On the negative side he will rarely miss out defenders and he relies on the wingers (and attacking midfielders to make good runs and offer width) and ideally the fullbacks to move into midfield or you can end up going backwards. I still think he is a player you use to get the best out of your top players or team setup rather than one to make a big personal impact on games.

Last season despite improved personal performances the loss of Aurelio and Arbeloa who were excellent at moving into midfield and the poor form of all our attacking midfielders (and tosserish behaviour of Riera) meant that he didn't have a big impact.

Well said.

[Galb]

If I came away from a game thinking player x was a pussy, didn't make any tackles in that game, then the stats showed he made 4 tackles, I'd accept that, put it down to them being less noticable ones (not sliding tackles, no foul etc) or that I had misidentifed the players from a distance. My eye witness evidence was unreliable. If after over 50 games I conclude that player x (smicer) is a pussy in the tackle, the mistakes are likely to have been evened out. Bias is another thing.

I don't rate Lucas very highly and notice his worst traits/ performances more because of this. However, probably because of him struggling at first and the vilification he received, I think there is a lot of positive bias that leads people to think average perfemances (compared to his peers at other clubs) are better than they are. When there are stats that could put him in a positive light at first glance, they are being given too much credence.

I do think you're right in that there was some people trying to even out what they see as unfair vilification but the studies on people's ability to evaluate would suggest the opposite is generally true - people are more likely to put faith in evidence fits with their preconceptions and to fail to look further for contrary evidence. In addition, people are also more likely to notice 'evidence' that backs up their view - so, if you think Lucas is rubbish, you remember the misplaced pass he makes in the game and if you think he's great, you remember the good ball that leads to a goalscoring opportunity.

It doesnt mean your judgments always wrong but it does also mean that you can't just expect your opinion to be automatically right all the time just because that's what you 'saw'.

[Kenneth]

It doesnt mean your judgments always wrong but it does also mean that you can't just expect your opinion to be automatically right all the time just because that's what you 'saw'.

Sure. Not sure there are many people arrogant enough to think like that.

[Mattshark]

Sure. Not sure there are many people arrogant enough to think like that.

They really are, the same way that most people will wilfully ignore evidence that doesn't fit their preconceptions (you see this a lot if you debate science, especially evolution).

As I said, most people seem to think that a witnessing something is excellent evidence and don't stop to think about subjectivity and bias.

[Mattshark]

you believe he is a holding midfielder?

well i dont think he is great at tackling like mascherano, i dont think he is box to box like essien, i dont think he has vision like alonso these are all great holding midfielders.

I think most midfielders in the premiership could come in and have the same effect as lucas on our team.

there is the water carrier role and i think he does break up play well, but then he doesnt do enough with it afterwards. The reason he is average is becuase i cant name many worse than him in the premiership, can you?

I don't think he is as good as any of those 3 players mentioned (but those 3 are 3 of the best in world), I think he is a lot better than most others in that role. I think he distributes the ball very well, just not spectacularly.

[Mattshark]

I've said that I think he should be a squad player for us in that position, so I don't see too much wrong with his game in that position. His positioning isn't as strong as Macherano's, Mascher is always in the right place to press the recipient of a pass. His sliding tackling is nowhere near that of Mascherano, or Gerrard. Now sliding isn't always the best option, but it should be an option. It also build confidence on the pitch and in the stands. He doesn't have strong shot, or the confidence to try. He has a great engine, very fit, which is a big plus as he is a mobile player. There are pros and cons to his game, and overall, he's alright as a holding player.

I agree about his shooting, though is finishing in the box can be good. I think he is a lot better in the air than Mascherano and he passing this season has been far better than Gerrard's. I think with confidence he could be a lot better going forward however, as he his good with the ball at his feet and calm under pressure.

[Exiled_red]

I think the problem with Lucas is that we don't know what his best position is, before he came to us he was a box to box player, for us he's been a defensive midfielder, we need to see if/where he plays for the new manager.