Lucas and the evaluation of players performance

[Pablo]

I've just realised Craig and Mattshark could easily be one person suffering from multiple personality disorder. Either that or Shaggy.

[Kenneth]

I dont know, surely yours is higher than anyones. I dont care what facts or stats anyone shows me, I go to the games and I KNOW. I know more than anyone else. Im never wrong.

Its all straw men, pedantics and misrepresentation with you mate. You must be a lawyer

And I think this was what he meant. Not the 'Guardian game review' you're trying to dismiss by misrepresenting what it is (no change there) but a visual record of the games. With things like players' passes. Not just in number but direction and location. You can look up a random selecion of Lucas' performances and you'll see passes of verying lengths all over the pitch. You can even compare him other players you think (sorry, know) play more accurate and more regular long passes. Have a look. You might learn something.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/create

Wow, direction and distance too. That covers it then, what could posibly subjective about a players ability when we have stats like that? Some questions though, does it show what the other players were doing at the time, the opposition in particular? Highlight passes that slip in between players to strikers? One twos? Passes that are played in front of a runner rather than directly to him? Passes that switch the play to areas where the opposition are stretched? Passes that put the recipient in a tight spot? I assume these are all covered in this magical objective statistical based assessment of a players quality. I guess I'll have to check it out and reassess my opinions on every player I have an opinion about.

[Craig_H]

Wow, direction and distance too. That covers it then, what could posibly subjective about a players ability when we have stats like that? One question though, does it show what the other players were doing at the time, the opposition in particular? Highlight passes that slip in between players to strikers? One twos? Passes that are played in front of a runner rather than directly to him? Passes that switch the play to areas where the opposition are stretched? Passes that put the recipient in a tight spot? I assume these are all covered in this magical objector statistical bases assessment of a players quality. I guess I'll have to check it out and reassess my opinions on every player I have an opinion about.

Unless it also tells you what colour boots he was wearing, i'm not interested.

[Pablo]

Wow, direction and distance too. That covers it then, what could posibly subjective about a players ability when we have stats like that? One question though, does it show what the other players were doing at the time, the opposition in particular? Highlight passes that slip in between players to strikers? One twos? Passes that are played in front of a runner rather than directly to him? Passes that switch the play to areas where the opposition are stretched? Passes that put the recipient in a tight spot? I assume these are all covered in this magical objector statistical bases assessment of a players quality. I guess I'll have to check it out and reassess my opinions on every player I have an opinion about.

Maths not your strong point?

[Kenneth]

Maths not your strong point?

There were so many flaws in the arguement I lost count

[el matador]

His ability and technique are very good, he rarely gives the ball away and he is a good passer, he basically got vilified for simply not being Alonso.

actually mate his technique is pretty poor.

You only need to look at his control of the ball to see it doesnt match up to that of the top players.

He always looks like he's stretching for balls that he's controlled, and he is always under pressure when he's on the ball.

Some of his long range passing doesnt hit its mark and most of stats you quote are probably no more than 10-20 yards.

Its hardly outstanding.

[Mattshark]

actually mate his technique is pretty poor.

You only need to look at his control of the ball to see it doesnt match up to that of the top players.

He always looks like he's stretching for balls that he's controlled, and he is always under pressure when he's on the ball.

Some of his long range passing doesnt hit its mark and most of stats you quote are probably no more than 10-20 yards.

Its hardly outstanding.

Sorry mate, but I don't see that, he control is good.

Some everyone's long range passing doesn't hit the mark, but his passing is good, feel free to analyse it though, the link is up.

[RichC]

actually mate his technique is pretty poor.

You only need to look at his control of the ball to see it doesnt match up to that of the top players.

He always looks like he's stretching for balls that he's controlled, and he is always under pressure when he's on the ball.

Some of his long range passing doesnt hit its mark and most of stats you quote are probably no more than 10-20 yards.

Its hardly outstanding.

Christ are you talking about Lucas or Dirk here!

Lucas is a decent squad player for me, still young and can do a job in the middle for us, preferably not as a starter but he's not as bad as people make him out to be.

The main issue we have is last season we played Masch and Lucas with Dirk on the right and Benni,Babbel et al on the left - not exactly the most creative of midfields (yes Benni is quite creative) - Lucas suffers a bit from the fans for not being a creative player of which I am sure we'll all agree we're screaming out for!

[Mattshark]

Christ are you talking about Lucas or Dirk here!

Lucas is a decent squad player for me, still young and can do a job in the middle for us, preferably not as a starter but he's not as bad as people make him out to be.

The main issue we have is last season we played Masch and Lucas with Dirk on the right and Benni,Babbel et al on the left - not exactly the most creative of midfields (yes Benni is quite creative) - Lucas suffers a bit from the fans for not being a creative player of which I am sure we'll all agree we're screaming out for!

I thought the main issue was that Gerrard, who is in their to be creative, was terrible all season.

[RichC]

I thought the main issue was that Gerrard, who is in their to be creative, was terrible all season.

he had the worst season I've ever seen from him, that being said though you need more than one player creating chances game after game!

[Mattshark]

he had the worst season I've ever seen from him, that being said though you need more than one player creating chances game after game!

Yes, but he is the driving force of that and when he doesn't play well, it has obvious knock on effects to the rest of the team, basically we lose one of our goal threats. This tied to the constant injuries Torres had all season was imo the major problem in our team.

[RichC]

Yes, but he is the driving force of that and when he doesn't play well, it has obvious knock on effects to the rest of the team, basically we lose one of our goal threats. This tied to the constant injuries Torres had all season was imo the major problem in our team.

True he is the driving force of the team and he was woeful last season but we still didn't have enough in terms of creative players on the pitch - hopefully Aqua Man will come good this season but until we know who's in charge of us it's hard to know the style of football we'll be addopting.

Personnally I'd love Pellegrini to come in did well at Villareal and the circus that's Madrid (plus I've got £50 at 9/1 on him)

[dww]

I find it odd how easy people find it to dismiss statistical evidence in favour of subjective memories. I accept that statistics can only tell a partial picture but eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable and subject to bias .

There is obviously a lot beyond the simple statistics presented with reference to Lucas to football but equally I think people tend to be to quick to dismiss them.

[Craig_H]

If you're watching a game and you feel a player's been barely effective, do you mistrust your own judgement so much that you think "well he looked poor, but i'd better have a look at the stats to just double check" ?

[Galb]

Wow, direction and distance too. That covers it then, what could posibly subjective about a players ability when we have stats like that? Some questions though, does it show what the other players were doing at the time, the opposition in particular? Highlight passes that slip in between players to strikers? One twos? Passes that are played in front of a runner rather than directly to him? Passes that switch the play to areas where the opposition are stretched? Passes that put the recipient in a tight spot? I assume these are all covered in this magical objective statistical based assessment of a players quality. I guess I'll have to check it out and reassess my opinions on every player I have an opinion about.

Of course they dont. I actually think stats are overused way too much by people these days (for example, the nonsense about a player's 'assists' as if his last pass was the only important one in the whole build-up).

But the suggestion was that Lucas only plays short passes and only plays them in the middle of the pitch. That's where direction and distance is relevant. It shows that's just not true.

It doesnt make him or a good or a bad player. They're just stats. But they show that Craig's taking out of his arse making those particular claims.