Lucas and the evaluation of players performance

[Kenneth]

If you compare the Lucas of last seaon to the Lucas that came before, yes, he's ace now. If you compare the Lucas of last season to Prem standard CMs, he's distinctly average.

we may see this box to box attacking midfielder we bought?

Not holding my breath.

[red g]

If you compare the Lucas of last seaon to the Lucas that came before, yes, he's ace now. If you compare the Lucas of last season to Prem standard CMs, he's distinctly average.



Not holding my breath.

so true and he may get better and better......but he is not worthy of starting 11 imo.

i think he has showed a rapid improvement though to give him his dues.....he has gone from woeful to average.

[Mattshark]

If you compare the Lucas of last seaon to the Lucas that came before, yes, he's ace now. If you compare the Lucas of last season to Prem standard CMs, he's distinctly average.



Not holding my breath.

Why is he average compared to other CM's in the Prem?

[red g]

Why is he average compared to other CM's in the Prem?

I think operation was saying he is average LIKE a lot of other CM's in the premiership or thats my thoguhts anyway

[Mattshark]

I think operation was saying he is average LIKE a lot of other CM's in the premiership or thats my thoguhts anyway

Then why are his passing and tackling stats in the top 5 in league?

[dww]

Fair enough, but it is unlikely that bias in this case is random, or without basis (racial or religious or whatever). we know opinion is a personal and subjective matter, especially in areas like football. Still doesn't make Lucas good enough though

I don't think it is random but I suspect that the basis is often as much aesthetic as it is about a true evaluation of his input to the team.

That said I tend to think the case of Lucas is one where actually most people have a lot of common ground in their opinions. Lucas is not good enough to be the central pivot of our team but I think he has the potential (and to some degree existing ability) to be a first team member if the rest of the team compliments him. In some ways there is over lap here with your point elsewhere about whether or not a Masherano type player is needed in a team. In both cases I think that there are a lot of systems in which either or both have a role but you have to be looking to maximise attacking prowess elsewhere in the team or they become a negative influence on your team selection.

[red g]

Then why are his passing and tackling stats in the top 5 in league?

where are these stats? cheers

[Mattshark]

I don't think it is ransom but I suspect that the basis is often as much aesthetic as it is about a true evaluation of his input to the team.

That said I tend to think the case of Lucas is one where actually most people have a lot of common ground in their opinions. Lucas is not good enough to be the central pivot of our team but I think he has the potential (and to some degree existing ability) to be a first team member if the rest of the team compliments him. In some ways there is over lap here with your point elsewhere about whether or not a Masherano type player is needed in a team. In both cases I think that there are a lot of systems in which either or both have a role but you have to be looking to maximise attacking prowess elsewhere in the team or they become a negative influence on your team selection.

I feel a lot a of people are judging him as the central pivot of our team, when I doubt that is his role.

[Kenneth]

I feel a lot a of people are judging him as the central pivot of our team, when I doubt that is his role.

And CM must take on a bit of that. Out of interest, what is his role? Or what should it be to get the most our of him?

For me, baackup holding player.

[dww]

Then why are his passing and tackling stats in the top 5 in league?

This is where the point about the use of stats becomes important - i.e. the breakdown of where the tackles were and what sort of passes are important in evaluating how effective a player is. The headline stats are a good argument against simplistic 'he can't pass/tackle' accusations but in more general terms I think offering them without context or criticism makes an equally as flawed argument.

They should be used to evaluate statements and hypotheses. Their main use is often to force people to refine points or refute over simplistic arguments rather than to forward a positive case for the excellence of a player in my view.

[dww]

I feel a lot a of people are judging him as the central pivot of our team, when I doubt that is his role.

I tend to agree but the problem, at least last season, was that there was no central pivot and hence any player failing to move into that role is to some degree there to be shot at (or at least the managers decision to buy/play him is and the distinction is often not particularly clear cut).

[RichC]

And CM must take on a bit of that. Out of interest, what is his role? Or what should it be to get the most our of him?

For me, baackup holding player.

Spot on - from how he's performed since he's been at Anfield he should be our back up holding MF

That being said I am sure he was an attacking MF in Brazil so depending on who comes in should well influence how he plays

[Mattshark]

This is where the point about the use of stats becomes important - i.e. the breakdown of where the tackles were and what sort of passes are important in evaluating how effective a player is. The headline stats are a good argument against simplistic 'he can't pass/tackle' accusations but in more general terms I think offering them without context or criticism makes an equally as flawed argument.

They should be used to evaluate statements and hypotheses. Their main use is often to force people to refine points or refute over simplistic arguments rather than to forward a positive case for the excellence of a player in my view.

Well, I always saw him as a holding midfielder, and these always seemed to be the two most important attributes in that role.

I tend to agree but the problem, at least last season, was that there was no central pivot and hence any player failing to move into that role is to some degree there to be shot at (or at least the managers decision to buy/play him is and the distinction is often not particularly clear cut).

I think the original intention was for Aquilani to be the pivot, but he never really got the chance, sadly Gerrard couldn't take on this role (or least not successfully) as he form was so poor over the season.
I still feel Lucas is being judge on him not being Alonso, rather than actually judging his performance as an individual.

[red g]

Then why are his passing and tackling stats in the top 5 in league?

Mascherano Liverpool 178 81%
Diamé Wigan 176 71%
Muamba Bolton 152 67%
Lucas Liverpool 148 69%
Petrov Aston Villa 143 76%

Passers Team Passes Accuracy
Ferguson Birmingham 2169 80%
Mascherano Liverpool 2115 83%
Lampard Chelsea 1927 81%
Terry Chelsea 1906 87%
Lucas Liverpool 1832 84%

well according to those stats.....terry passes more and is more succesful, hardly a good basis to have an arguement on.......

[red g]

Well, I always saw him as a holding midfielder, and these always seemed to be the two most important attributes in that role.


I think the original intention was for Aquilani to be the pivot, but he never really got the chance, sadly Gerrard couldn't take on this role (or least not successfully) as he form was so poor over the season.
I still feel Lucas is being judge on him not being Alonso, rather than actually judging his performance as an individual.

but then i think you need more than just a tackle and short pass to be succesful in that role?

he just doesnt have enough to his game to be playing week in, week out for us.