I hope you're proud of yourselves

[Qantaga]

The **** has this been merged with the Rafa watch thread for? That thread is for following his progress at Inter, nothing else. This is an entirely different topic.

Mod **** up

[fah-q]

theres no smoke without fire and rafa had lost that dressing room IMO.

Of course you can have smoke without fire.

[fah-q]

choose to realise he had lost it big time by end of last season and going on our form towards the end of the season when we were playing utter ****e ( the same level of utter ****e as now ) we would be in just as much **** right now under him - maybe not 19th but defo bottom third of the league.

Thats a load of crap, we may have been bad last year but at least we had a shape, instructions and were fairly compact and tough to break down. We may not have inspired much in an attacking sense but there's no way we would have sat off teams like we have this season.

[Galb]

But that's the thing. Xabi was hardly a defensive midfielder as such. Mascherano broke up the play and Xabi orchestrated our attacks. He didn't play as far forward as he did in his first season and he wasn't given as much freedom, but he was hardly a defensive minded player. The thing is, the two of them were world class in their positions and when we first set out like that, we were scoring freely having previously just struggled against the likes of Luton, Havant & Waterlooville and losing to Barnsley playing 442. It was then near a full year later that we got a few draws back to back against Everton, Stoke etc, (I know there were a few before that too) that these two world class players were then being targeted and there was suddenly no need for them, despite the fact we were blowing away 90% of the other teams beforehand.

People were also arguing at the end of that season that there was no need for Mascherano against lesser opponents despite the fact that the stats showed we scored far more goals with him in the team that without him. It’s maybe unfair to judge with Roy in control, but those who also said there is no need for a world class DM in our team, an average one could be just as effective are starting to look a bit silly. One decent performance all season and that was against Arsenal, and Masch was in the thick of it.

People outside Liverpool have said praised Xabi far more than they ever did when he was here. He was always one of my favourite players but there was a long time when he was talked about as a defensive midfielder which was rubbish IMO. Like you say, he may have played in front of the back four, but he was pivotal to the attack from there.

Again, people looking at formations ahead of the players in the positions.

[Galb]

Fair enough, misplaced on me using player names. What I should have wrote was the striker and Attacking mid / forward lying just behind instead, because you are correct when injuries, the time before Torres etc. are accounted for. So 2 players having a creative free input then.

Two players having a free input but far more had a creative role to play.

We usually had one creative wide player (Garcia, Babel, Riera, Kewell, etc) and one (usually Kuyt) on the other side who was more defensive but also had a creative role to play.

The full backs usually had a creative role, especially on the left side.

Agger had a clear creative role in building attacks. Skrtel too is capable of bringing the ball out of defence on occasions.

Reina too had creative role in terms of counter attacks.

Not all creative all the time (especially Reina obviously) but clear attacking elements to their role.

In fact, the only players you could really say were thoroughly negative regulars were Carragher and Mascherano/Sissoko.

[Fredo]

how often did we have passages of play like that last year? once maybe twice i bet. we've had the slick one touch passing this year in the early arsenal game although it was in the middle of the park. do it once more this year and it'll equal all of last year.

Sorry but

[little dave hedgehog]

TBF mate, listen to the players of that era, we passed teams to death, it wasn't all hollywood passing but hard work and control that made us the best team in Europe - that was the Liverpool ethos and under Rafa he bought us as close to that as any time since the end of the 80's .

TBF mate, listen to the players of that era, we passed teams to death, it wasn't all hollywood passing but hard work and control that made us the best team in Europe - that was the Liverpool ethos and under Rafa he bought us as close to that as any time since the end of the 80's .

TBF mate, listen to the players of that era, we passed teams to death, it wasn't all hollywood passing but hard work and control that made us the best team in Europe - that was the Liverpool ethos and under Rafa he bought us as close to that as any time since the end of the 80's .

TBF mate, listen to the players of that era, we passed teams to death, it wasn't all hollywood passing but hard work and control that made us the best team in Europe - that was the Liverpool ethos and under Rafa he bought us as close to that as any time since the end of the 80's .

TBF mate, listen to the players of that era, we passed teams to death, it wasn't all hollywood passing but hard work and control that made us the best team in Europe - that was the Liverpool ethos and under Rafa he bought us as close to that as any time since the end of the 80's .

[Fernandinho]

Am I missing something sonic?

[RedSince1964]

This is for all of you complete fools who helped hound Rafa out of the club, you know who you are.

You are all directly responsible for the utter mess we're in on the pitch now.

You brought this on, and I hope you feel proud of yourselves

How would you feel about feeling 7th now you idiots? You'd all jizz in your pants for a 7th place finish now wouldn't you?

If you'd all been sensible enough to see the bigger picture back then and get behind Rafa he'd still be here. H&G couldn't find a way to force him out until you lot all turned on him. The second the fans turned he was gone in a flash.

If we'd backed him we'd still have one of the best managers in the world at the club, new owners, and positivity all around the club, Rafa would finally have been able to go for his first choice signings etc.

Instead we're in the worst shape since prior to Shankly and you're directly to blame for it

New owners, but until Roy's gone well.........IAFN.

A absolutly spot on post sir
Could'nt have put it any better myself

[vonk]

Were we awful last season by our own high standards?

Yes. We finished 7th.

Now we're 19th and you reckon "we would be in just as much **** if he was still here" - what's it based on? There's no evidence whatsoever and all the facts available bear it out - we were nowhere near as bad as this last season nor at any time during the six years Benitez was here.

You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to call it a load of bollocks.

No-one is saying that Hodgson was the right choice. However turning around and saying we shouldn't have sacked Rafa because of what Hodgson is doing is a ludicrous argument. Should we have stuck with a manager that after 6 years got us to 7th place and gave us one of our worst season in years? No. A manager has got to show progress, great managers don't have bad seasons, they improve year after year. We challenged for the league title once in six seasons. Not good enough for Liverpool Football Club.

Would I swap where we are now for seventh? Its a stupid question because seventh is ****e for a club like us, as is where we are now.

If you are stuck in a rut you can stick with what you have and accept mediocrity or you can change, and the club decided to change. Change is a risk, it doesn't always work. But it has to happen, otherwise its more of the same.

So now we have changed, and the risk is not working. Does it mean we shouldn't have changed? No, because the club does not accept mediocrity. Just like it won't with Hodgson.

[The_Positive_One]

This is for all of you complete fools who helped hound Rafa out of the club, you know who you are.

You are all directly responsible for the utter mess we're in on the pitch now.

You brought this on, and I hope you feel proud of yourselves

How would you feel about feeling 7th now you idiots? You'd all jizz in your pants for a 7th place finish now wouldn't you?

If you'd all been sensible enough to see the bigger picture back then and get behind Rafa he'd still be here. H&G couldn't find a way to force him out until you lot all turned on him. The second the fans turned he was gone in a flash.

If we'd backed him we'd still have one of the best managers in the world at the club, new owners, and positivity all around the club, Rafa would finally have been able to go for his first choice signings etc.

Instead we're in the worst shape since prior to Shankly and you're directly to blame for it

New owners, but until Roy's gone well.........IAFN.

Well said...

[pezzzer]

spot on mate. it was pure witch hunting at its worst on here. a cpl of posters got so bad it was embarresing, and YES they know who they are............COUGHcraighCOUGH

[Neil Young]

No-one is saying that Hodgson was the right choice. However turning around and saying we shouldn't have sacked Rafa because of what Hodgson is doing is a ludicrous argument. Should we have stuck with a manager that after 6 years got us to 7th place and gave us one of our worst season in years? No. A manager has got to show progress, great managers don't have bad seasons, they improve year after year. We challenged for the league title once in six seasons. Not good enough for Liverpool Football Club.

Would I swap where we are now for seventh? Its a stupid question because seventh is ****e for a club like us, as is where we are now.

If you are stuck in a rut you can stick with what you have and accept mediocrity or you can change, and the club decided to change. Change is a risk, it doesn't always work. But it has to happen, otherwise its more of the same.

So now we have changed, and the risk is not working. Does it mean we shouldn't have changed? No, because the club does not accept mediocrity. Just like it won't with Hodgson.

I disagree overall but I think you make some good points. Certainly there's an argument to say change is necessary and doesn't always work out. However I think your argument is fatally flawed by the assertion that good managers don't have bad seasons. Ferguson's a pretty good manager - look at his record in the first ten years of his job at Manchester United: 11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, 6th, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st. It's not a smooth upward curve. And Ferguson always had money to spend - at least comparable with the biggest spenders in the league, if not more.

When you take into account the reduction in our transfer budget, with money going on servicing the leeches' acquisition debt, then I think there's a much stronger argument to excuse even finishing seventh (even without taking into account the fact we weren't that far off fourth and were without our two best players for much of the season) and give the manager time to put it right.

On top of that it was always obvious we weren't going to replace Rafa with a manager of similar stature, experience and talent. And so it has proved.

Ultimately it comes down to whether it works - change for change's sake has not worked.

Most important for the terms of this discussion, we're not talking simply with the benefit of hindsight here. It was clear we were going to be worse off without Benitez. The only thing none of us got right is just how bad it was going to be.

[Shaggy]

No-one is saying that Hodgson was the right choice. However turning around and saying we shouldn't have sacked Rafa because of what Hodgson is doing is a ludicrous argument. Should we have stuck with a manager that after 6 years got us to 7th place and gave us one of our worst season in years? No. A manager has got to show progress, great managers don't have bad seasons, they improve year after year. We challenged for the league title once in six seasons. Not good enough for Liverpool Football Club.

Would I swap where we are now for seventh? Its a stupid question because seventh is ****e for a club like us, as is where we are now.

If you are stuck in a rut you can stick with what you have and accept mediocrity or you can change, and the club decided to change. Change is a risk, it doesn't always work. But it has to happen, otherwise its more of the same.

So now we have changed, and the risk is not working. Does it mean we shouldn't have changed? No, because the club does not accept mediocrity. Just like it won't with Hodgson.

It isn't because the absolute fundamental rule when sacking a manager is you only do it if you can replace him with someone better. And clearly that was never going to happen, and it hasn't happened. We've got worse, much worse.

[Shaggy]

I disagree overall but I think you make some good points. Certainly there's an argument to say change is necessary and doesn't always work out. However I think your argument is fatally flawed by the assertion that good managers don't have bad seasons. Ferguson's a pretty good manager - look at his record in the first ten years of his job at Manchester United: 11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, 6th, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st. It's not a smooth upward curve. And Ferguson always had money to spend - at least comparable with the biggest spenders in the league, if not more.

When you take into account the reduction in our transfer budget, with money going on servicing the leeches' acquisition debt, then I think there's a much stronger argument to excuse even finishing seventh (even without taking into account the fact we weren't that far off fourth and were without our two best players for much of the season) and give the manager time to put it right.

On top of that it was always obvious we weren't going to replace Rafa with a manager of similar stature, experience and talent. And so it has proved.

Ultimately it comes down to whether it works - change for change's sake has not worked.

Most important for the terms of this discussion, we're not talking simply with the benefit of hindsight here. It was clear we were going to be worse off without Benitez. The only thing none of us got right is just how bad it was going to be.