Our style of play

[danperkins]

It's desperation on our part, he was dreadful last night... as was everyone.

[Doc_Piptorious]

It's desperation on our part, he was dreadful last night... as was everyone.

The team last night for the most part get a pass from me. For the simple reason that they did the bare minimum required in terms of working hard and actually looking like they were trying to go at Palace.

It is something I have not seen from a lot of the regular starters for a bit.

That level of effort is the bare minimum we should expect from the starters come the weekend.

One can live with not being good enough on a given day, but never with not working hard enough.

[danperkins]

The team last night for the most part get a pass from me. For the simple reason that they did the bare minimum required in terms of working hard and actually looking like they were trying to go at Palace.

It is something I have not seen from a lot of the regular starters for a bit.

That level of effort is the bare minimum we should expect from the starters come the weekend.

One can live with not being good enough on a given day, but never with not working hard enough.

Yeah working hard and showing heart is literally the bare minimum. I think if we beat Villa, people will say fair enough he was correct but if we don't win... well.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Yeah working hard and showing heart is literally the bare minimum. I think if we beat Villa, people will say fair enough he was correct but if we don't win... well.

Yeah it boils down to what happens against Villa. We win and Slot has been smart with the squad.


We continue our bad form and the pressure to get wins against both Real and City grows even more.

[Norbs]

Is it time to change the thread title to 'What style of play?'

[Harv]

Could people stop calling for Gomez as a panacea. Did anyone see the game last night, **** me. Basically i don't think we need to starting must win games a goal down.

Can you blame the guy? He gets about 10 minutes of game time every 3 mths then expected to play like Baresi when he gets a start in a team full of kids and rejects

He's another of the bunch that Slot filed "in the bin" because they had the audacity to be injured when he joined and refuses to give a chance.

[labourRed]

Can you blame the guy? He gets about 10 minutes of game time every 3 mths then expected to play like Baresi when he gets a start in a team full of kids and rejects

He's another of the bunch that Slot filed "in the bin" because they had the audacity to be injured when he joined and refuses to give a chance.

It's a fair point. He did alright for about 30mins to be fair. But after that his legs just went, you could see it before the goal.

The point stands though, Gomez isn't ready for first team football, from a quality and fitness perspective.

Also, footnote. The Jota song, without being disrespectful, i don't think it's helpful. Its served it's purpose. There's a time and a place for it, but during the game, I don't think it's helping the team.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Think a lot of what is going wrong on the pitch goes beyond tactics.

Many of us have brought up the impact the loss of Jota may be having on players and I think last night's game in a way adds more weight to that premise.

Last night we had a keeper and back four that are all long term players at the club and all long term friends/colleagues of Jota.

In front of that five we had three title winning midfielders who are all senior players within the team now and all would have known Jota for years.

Up front we had one long term player.

So nine of our starters last night are all long term established players, all used to playing in the same team together, all used to where the other goes on the pitch and so on.

Are we to believe that it is simply down to tactics that the title winning midfield cannot play together in a cohesive manner in front of a long established group of players in the back four.

All those guys are familiar enough with each other to be able to do the basics in their sleep by now.

Tactics may be a factor to some degree, but we still had a back four playing behind a midfield they are used to playing behind and a midfield in front of a back four they know.

Instead they at times play like they are the new players getting to know their places in the team and are lacking any zip in their passing and seem to all want to take an extra touch or two on the ball that then allows space to be closed down leading to more crab style passing.

Tactics and patterns of play can be a factor as said, but the slow almost laboured passing and lack of moving to be available for team mates screams more of a malaise or apathy at times.

Last night was a team full of mostly title winning players playing in familar to them positions with team mates around them that they are used to. When can blame the manager and tactics but when that many from a title winning team are together in their preferred positions and we still get a plodding ponderous performance then questions need to be asked of the players themselves.

Are many of them still struggling to grieve and/or not able to move forward as after all a close friend died only months ago? Or if that is not a case then questions need to be asked about their mentalities and professionalism/


Me I am leaning towards there being a squad that is simply broken emotionally and little things are off by a few seconds here and a few seconds there. Thought processes are that bit off and so on, and as a result change is proving difficult in terms of tactics on the pitch, but also just doing what they know is proven equally difficult.


What's the solution? New manager? New players? Fecked if I know.

My gut feeling is time is the only solution but that is me thinking what happens in the real world for us more regular folk and things may be different when your very work place may be a big part of what is causing mental issues and when results on the pitch could mean a difference of tens and tens of millions of pound, if not far more, for the club/organisation.

[Exiled_red]

Think a lot of what is going wrong on the pitch goes beyond tactics.

Many of us have brought up the impact the loss of Jota may be having on players and I think last night's game in a way adds more weight to that premise.

Last night we had a keeper and back four that are all long term players at the club and all long term friends/colleagues of Jota.

In front of that five we had three title winning midfielders who are all senior players within the team now and all would have known Jota for years.

Up front we had one long term player.

So nine of our starters last night are all long term established players, all used to playing in the same team together, all used to where the other goes on the pitch and so on.

Are we to believe that it is simply down to tactics that the title winning midfield cannot play together in a cohesive manner in front of a long established group of players in the back four.

All those guys are familiar enough with each other to be able to do the basics in their sleep by now.

Tactics may be a factor to some degree, but we still had a back four playing behind a midfield they are used to playing behind and a midfield in front of a back four they know.

Instead they at times play like they are the new players getting to know their places in the team and are lacking any zip in their passing and seem to all want to take an extra touch or two on the ball that then allows space to be closed down leading to more crab style passing.

Tactics and patterns of play can be a factor as said, but the slow almost laboured passing and lack of moving to be available for team mates screams more of a malaise or apathy at times.

Last night was a team full of mostly title winning players playing in familar to them positions with team mates around them that they are used to. When can blame the manager and tactics but when that many from a title winning team are together in their preferred positions and we still get a plodding ponderous performance then questions need to be asked of the players themselves.

Are many of them still struggling to grieve and/or not able to move forward as after all a close friend died only months ago? Or if that is not a case then questions need to be asked about their mentalities and professionalism/


Me I am leaning towards there being a squad that is simply broken emotionally and little things are off by a few seconds here and a few seconds there. Thought processes are that bit off and so on, and as a result change is proving difficult in terms of tactics on the pitch, but also just doing what they know is proven equally difficult.


What's the solution? New manager? New players? Fecked if I know.

My gut feeling is time is the only solution but that is me thinking what happens in the real world for us more regular folk and things may be different when your very work place may be a big part of what is causing mental issues and when results on the pitch could mean a difference of tens and tens of millions of pound, if not far more, for the club/organisation.

I have mentioned alot that I think Jota's death has had a huge impact, I think the first few games there wad perhaps a bit more energy and desire to 'Do it for Jota' but as the emotions have taken hold and they have moved past the intense initial raw feelings, the reality has taken hold a bit more. I don't like the comparison but I watched the Dalglish film recently and the effects that Hillsborough had on him weren't immediately obvious and he quit because of his inability to make decisions. Given how Slot has gone from making in game changes that took us to the title last year to seemingly not being able to do anything right I do wonder about the effects of Jota's death. As I say I don't really like making comparisons beyond both being massive tragic events that affected the club and the people involved with it. I don't think people appreciated in 89-91 how much that affected Dalglish and the players at the time, and I think that something similar is the case here, no one involved will appreciate how much they were affected by it until they have properly dealt with their emotions and come out the other side and can reflect.

That said part of me does have concerns that this is not just down to the situation with Jota (or certain players fitness) because we were really poor in last few months of last season from Feb/March. Also despite being happy with the players that we brought in on paper, I have never been sure how we are supposed to play with them, and that looks as much if not more on the recruitment side than the manager.

TBH I have no idea how this gets sorted, I'm not convinced a new manager is a magic solution to turning this around

[Sus]

I have mentioned alot that I think Jota's death has had a huge impact, I think the first few games there wad perhaps a bit more energy and desire to 'Do it for Jota' but as the emotions have taken hold and they have moved past the intense initial raw feelings, the reality has taken hold a bit more. I don't like the comparison but I watched the Dalglish film recently and the effects that Hillsborough had on him weren't immediately obvious and he quit because of his inability to make decisions. Given how Slot has gone from making in game changes that took us to the title last year to seemingly not being able to do anything right I do wonder about the effects of Jota's death. As I say I don't really like making comparisons beyond both being massive tragic events that affected the club and the people involved with it. I don't think people appreciated in 89-91 how much that affected Dalglish and the players at the time, and I think that something similar is the case here, no one involved will appreciate how much they were affected by it until they have properly dealt with their emotions and come out the other side and can reflect.

That said part of me does have concerns that this is not just down to the situation with Jota (or certain players fitness) because we were really poor in last few months of last season from Feb/March. Also despite being happy with the players that we brought in on paper, I have never been sure how we are supposed to play with them, and that looks as much if not more on the recruitment side than the manager.

TBH I have no idea how this gets sorted, I'm not convinced a new manager is a magic solution to turning this around

I agree with this - we have been poor since Feb / Mar, and especially once we took our foot off the pedal. We've found it hard to get back to that level, and I don't think that's related to Jota.

I also agree that Jota has had an impact, one that is hard to quantify, but I just don't think it would significantly impact players' decisions in games, where they have millisecods to react sometimes and instinct plays a key role.

However, it could well be having in impact in preparation, which then translates into performance on the pitch, whether that's fitness, following new tactical instructions etc

[Doc_Piptorious]

I have mentioned alot that I think Jota's death has had a huge impact, I think the first few games there wad perhaps a bit more energy and desire to 'Do it for Jota' but as the emotions have taken hold and they have moved past the intense initial raw feelings, the reality has taken hold a bit more. I don't like the comparison but I watched the Dalglish film recently and the effects that Hillsborough had on him weren't immediately obvious and he quit because of his inability to make decisions. Given how Slot has gone from making in game changes that took us to the title last year to seemingly not being able to do anything right I do wonder about the effects of Jota's death. As I say I don't really like making comparisons beyond both being massive tragic events that affected the club and the people involved with it. I don't think people appreciated in 89-91 how much that affected Dalglish and the players at the time, and I think that something similar is the case here, no one involved will appreciate how much they were affected by it until they have properly dealt with their emotions and come out the other side and can reflect.

That said part of me does have concerns that this is not just down to the situation with Jota (or certain players fitness) because we were really poor in last few months of last season from Feb/March. Also despite being happy with the players that we brought in on paper, I have never been sure how we are supposed to play with them, and that looks as much if not more on the recruitment side than the manager.

TBH I have no idea how this gets sorted, I'm not convinced a new manager is a magic solution to turning this around

The Dalglish comparison is a good one with regards to Slot. Very different situations and on different scales, but loss is loss at the end of the day and Slot would have known Jota for over a year and seen him week in week out. Maybe some extra pressure there due to being a new manager at the club and a feeling of expectation that he needs to lead a group of grieving people and possibily not having the mental and emotional tools to do so (assumptions on my behalf of course).

Same goes for the players and might go a layer further as many of their own families may have been friends with Jota and his family.



That does not of course, if we look at things from a playing pov only, explain away all of what we see on match days but it does add a tad more nuance to things than it being just down to tactics or the manager/players being crap all of a sudden.


With regards to the new players, I am fully convinced we were going to move to a very diffferent attacking set up this season and that Jota was part of that.

The usual back four set up (full backs for width) with a solid three CM set up in the middle but up front we were, imo, going to see the front three go between two strikers and an AM to one striker backed by two CFs or two WAMs (depending on what game and who needed resting)

Would explain the selling of Nunez and Diaz, as we would have been left with Isak, Ekitike, Jota, Wirtz, Gakpo and Salah as the five main players to rotate between the ST, CF and AM roles.


Throw the death of Jota into that, the delay in being able to get Isak along with injuries at RB, and maybe that has us where we are.

Should the manager be more pragmatic with his selection? Yes I think so but at the same time we do not know how players are behind the scenes and maybe some players are more ready than others to play, hence guys like Salah being played despite performances. The flip side of that is we see guys obviously ready to play and battle like Chiesa being marginalised.


I started the season fully convinced we were going to grow into it more and more, but now I very much think we (the team and maybe management and backroom staff) are broken as a group. Mentally and emotionally. With that then having an impact on the manager's decisions, on the players' performing ability in front of a crowd and so on.

Do have a bit of a hair brained theory that if this was like the covid season and playing in an empty stadium, that a lot of the players would be doing better.

[Exiled_red]

I agree with this - we have been poor since Feb / Mar, and especially once we took our foot off the pedal. We've found it hard to get back to that level, and I don't think that's related to Jota.

I also agree that Jota has had an impact, one that is hard to quantify, but I just don't think it would significantly impact players' decisions in games, where they have millisecods to react sometimes and instinct plays a key role.

However, it could well be having in impact in preparation, which then translates into performance on the pitch, whether that's fitness, following new tactical instructions etc

IMO it is difficult go judge any of these things in isolation as we don't have enough evidence. I mentioned the form/performances last season the start of that run was around the PSG games the latter part of the run was when the title was wrapped upand much of the middle part the title was almost wrapped up. Had we been having to fight for the title maybe form and/or results get better in that middle/end period and we end up with that just being a blip for a few weeks (which most teams go through). If that were the case I would probably be putting the form this season solely down to what happened in the summer with Jota. That not being the case leaves the nagging doubt that there is something on a more fundamental football level wrong which is being compounded by what happened in the summer.

What happened with Jota is definately having some effect whether that is in preparation, in game time or both, and whether it is conscious or not, who knows but IMO it is definitely a big part of the problem. And I would be happy to give Slot more time if I were sure it were just down to this, as I say I am not sure whether it is the case or not due to the nagging doubts from last season. Having won the league last season and had to deal with the Jota situation which I thought he handled superbly BTW I feel that he deserves a chance to put this right.

BUT this is ultimately a results business, at present we are a on a run of 7pts from out last 9 PL games were this form to continue for the rest of the season we would finish on 40 points (thanks in large to the 5 wins from the first 5 games) if we are getting any decent way into the 2nd half of the season and showing that sort of form I can't see the manager still being here just because of the nature of football.

We really need CL football, but to be honest I don't know if that is achievable, looking at the table at present it very much should be but there has to be a significant turn around in form and I'm just not seeing signs of that at the moment.

[Doc_Piptorious]

I agree with this - we have been poor since Feb / Mar, and especially once we took our foot off the pedal. We've found it hard to get back to that level, and I don't think that's related to Jota.

I also agree that Jota has had an impact, one that is hard to quantify, but I just don't think it would significantly impact players' decisions in games, where they have millisecods to react sometimes and instinct plays a key role.

However, it could well be having in impact in preparation, which then translates into performance on the pitch, whether that's fitness, following new tactical instructions etc

With respect I disagree strongly with that highlighted line. For me it could very much have an on pitch impact. Pressures of having to perform for Jota, pressure after seeing "him" in the stadium (pictures, memorials, dressing room number etc) prior to going onto the pitch and then the singing of his song on the 20th minute each game.

There was something put up, not sure if it was on this site or another site, that was taken from one of the stat sites (OPTA etc) that showed around the 20th minute each game and for the following five to 10 minutes of play, our running and pressing stats dropped off significantly and that that drop off, as the season progressed, began to happen minutes before the 20th minute singing of the song thus further extended that period of drop off and reducing our levels of intensity for the rest of the half.

Not sure what coaching or tactics could counter that tbh as it is very much, to me, a very visceral reaction by the players and a show of joint hurt playing out publically.


I know years ago we had a death within a coaching circle and we had group therapy sessions and so on after it. Was a natural death of a somewhat older gent due to an illness so whilst there was a shock factor it was not totally out of the blue.

But despite us trying to keep a level of normality within the training facility, levels did fall off. Session intensity dropped, set performances dropped, sparring levels dropped, numbers dropped and so on. People were still trying and still working hard, it was just that some mental switch was missing and the inability to throw that switch to go through the gears impacted everything in the physical world.

But we could go home afterwards and grieve normally and be there for each other without a constant worldwide media spotlight via social media (different era so Social media was not as much of an all encompassing thing) , news stations and what not.

We also had the luxury, for want of a better word, to work through the drop off in performances behind closed doors for the most part and the luxury of being able to some of the harder hit folk away from the front line without it being obvious to outsiders.

Now move that on to a much larger scale with the shock death of a much younger man in a sport where he had many team mates and a bigger coaching team around him with an audience of hundreds of millions following the news of the death and it's aftermath. Those same team mates and coaching staff then having to worth through their grief publically with constant reminders of that loss and then trying to find a way to mend their dropped off performances out in the open.


For me this season is a perfect storm of everything and anything that could go wrong. From a loss/grief and mental wellness pov, from a playing pov, from a coaching pov and from a sheer bad luck with transfer times and injuries.

In my world that means circling the wagons, holding those that matter close and putting a barrier between your people and the outside world until things are "easier". However in the world of our players, management and anyone else at the club that circling of the wagons is a far more difficult thing to attempt let alone achieve.

[Sus]

With respect I disagree strongly with that highlighted line. For me it could very much have an on pitch impact. Pressures of having to perform for Jota, pressure after seeing "him" in the stadium (pictures, memorials, dressing room number etc) prior to going onto the pitch and then the singing of his song on the 20th minute each game.

There was something put up, not sure if it was on this site or another site, that was taken from one of the stat sites (OPTA etc) that showed around the 20th minute each game and for the following five to 10 minutes of play, our running and pressing stats dropped off significantly and that that drop off, as the season progressed, began to happen minutes before the 20th minute singing of the song thus further extended that period of drop off and reducing our levels of intensity for the rest of the half.

Not sure what coaching or tactics could counter that tbh as it is very much, to me, a very visceral reaction by the players and a show of joint hurt playing out publically.


I know years ago we had a death within a coaching circle and we had group therapy sessions and so on after it. Was a natural death of a somewhat older gent due to an illness so whilst there was a shock factor it was not totally out of the blue.

But despite us trying to keep a level of normality within the training facility, levels did fall off. Session intensity dropped, set performances dropped, sparring levels dropped, numbers dropped and so on. People were still trying and still working hard, it was just that some mental switch was missing and the inability to throw that switch to go through the gears impacted everything in the physical world.

But we could go home afterwards and grieve normally and be there for each other without a constant worldwide media spotlight via social media (different era so Social media was not as much of an all encompassing thing) , news stations and what not.

We also had the luxury, for want of a better word, to work through the drop off in performances behind closed doors for the most part and the luxury of being able to some of the harder hit folk away from the front line without it being obvious to outsiders.

Now move that on to a much larger scale with the shock death of a much younger man in a sport where he had many team mates and a bigger coaching team around him with an audience of hundreds of millions following the news of the death and it's aftermath. Those same team mates and coaching staff then having to worth through their grief publically with constant reminders of that loss and then trying to find a way to mend their dropped off performances out in the open.


For me this season is a perfect storm of everything and anything that could go wrong. From a loss/grief and mental wellness pov, from a playing pov, from a coaching pov and from a sheer bad luck with transfer times and injuries.

In my world that means circling the wagons, holding those that matter close and putting a barrier between your people and the outside world until things are "easier". However in the world of our players, management and anyone else at the club that circling of the wagons is a far more difficult thing to attempt let alone achieve.

That's interesting, I didn't know that. I could well be wrong then, I'm not basing it on any information, or even personal experience (luckily)

[Irishnev]

That's interesting, I didn't know that. I could well be wrong then, I'm not basing it on any information, or even personal experience (luckily)

We are out run and out sprinted in most games and I think the tot started last season as well. Arne said it openly that teams changed how they played vs us the second time they played us by going long and bypassing our press which could also explain the lack of running I.e. no opportunity to press.

We just seem poorly coached right now which is so surprising given the full pre season and lacking it physicality which is also surprising as we have big lads everywhere. Grav, Cody, Isak and Hugo all seem to be quite soft and not aggressive for their size