Arne Slot

[Pablo]

Agree, for some reason, I think Arsenal might not be quite there yet, I tipped them for the title, but I have a feeling.

Same. I also tipped them to win, but I'm also now backtracking.

I think they were very lucky last season with injuries. That surely can't happen two seasons in a row. If they have a bad run of injuries I don't think they will cope with it as well as City.

I'd say the same argument applies to us by the way. I think the way Slot has us set up is brilliant, but I do wonder about cover should MacAllister and/or Gravenberch get injured. It is a fairly specialist role and I think we needed better cover there and potentially at CB too.

[Sus]

Same. I also tipped them to win, but I'm also now backtracking.

I think they were very lucky last season with injuries. That surely can't happen two seasons in a row. If they have a bad run of injuries I don't think they will cope with it as well as City.

I'd say the same argument applies to us by the way. I think the way Slot has us set up is brilliant, but I do wonder about cover should MacAllister and/or Gravenberch get injured. It is a fairly specialist role and I think we needed better cover there and potentially at CB too.

Feel like Jones is well suited to that role. Good engine, great touch, press resistant, can create and defend

[Doc_Piptorious]

Same. I also tipped them to win, but I'm also now backtracking.

I think they were very lucky last season with injuries. That surely can't happen two seasons in a row. If they have a bad run of injuries I don't think they will cope with it as well as City.

I'd say the same argument applies to us by the way. I think the way Slot has us set up is brilliant, but I do wonder about cover should MacAllister and/or Gravenberch get injured. It is a fairly specialist role and I think we needed better cover there and potentially at CB too.

Think in a way it is the opposite given how Slot appears to be seting us up.

Rather than having a specialist player in the deeper role, Slot seems to be, for now anyway, using players who are good all rounders and that can do a job as a basic level DM but at the same time have a box to box quality to them so that if one switches to being the box to box guy during a transistion of play then the other can drop back to be the deeper lying player.

For the same reason I agree with the comment about Jones that Sus made.

In a Klopp set up I don't think the same players (MacAllister, Gravenberch or Jones) would have been ideal Klopp DMs (though MacAllister at times did a trojan job) as Klopp has at times tended to like guys that are DM specialists when he could buy one.


Slot to my eyes looks like he is going with a more swiss army knife to who he wants to use in the centre at present and all three guys have top cover at least two roles each during games.

Gravenberch and MacAllister depending on phase of play and who is the more advanced during it go between being a DM/deep lying playmaker and being a box to box guy.

Szobo goes between being an AM/advanced link player and being a box to box guy.


Maybe that will change when Slot has had six month to evaluate everyone and maybe he will look to bring in a specialist for the deeper role then or maybe he will simply look to bring in an even higher level of all rounder (or he might just be delighted with those he already has).

[dom9]

Think in a way it is the opposite given how Slot appears to be seting us up.

Rather than having a specialist player in the deeper role, Slot seems to be, for now anyway, using players who are good all rounders and that can do a job as a basic level DM but at the same time have a box to box quality to them so that if one switches to being the box to box guy during a transistion of play then the other can drop back to be the deeper lying player.

For the same reason I agree with the comment about Jones that Sus made.

In a Klopp set up I don't think the same players (MacAllister, Gravenberch or Jones) would have been ideal Klopp DMs (though MacAllister at times did a trojan job) as Klopp has at times tended to like guys that are DM specialists when he could buy one.


Slot to my eyes looks like he is going with a more swiss army knife to who he wants to use in the centre at present and all three guys have top cover at least two roles each during games.

Gravenberch and MacAllister depending on phase of play and who is the more advanced during it go between being a DM/deep lying playmaker and being a box to box guy.

Szobo goes between being an AM/advanced link player and being a box to box guy.


Maybe that will change when Slot has had six month to evaluate everyone and maybe he will look to bring in a specialist for the deeper role then or maybe he will simply look to bring in an even higher level of all rounder (or he might just be delighted with those he already has).

There's a few things which stand out to me as tactical differences between Klopp and Slot, and which specifically impact the required DM skillset.

1. We are looking to control the game from front to back a lot more, which means you need a solid press resistant presence in that area who can do more with the ball under pressure.

2. Per 1. above, we are more likely to be pressed ourselves when in possession in deep areas due to the nature of our play, so a press resistant presence at DM is crucial in order to keep the ball under pressure and find players in space.

3. Per 1. and 2. above, we are less likely to be counter attacked now than under Klopp, so the requirement for a last ditch destroyer to break up play is not the priority.

When you add that up, you can see why Endo was crucial under Klopp, but just isn't right for Slot.

Mac Allister and Gravenberch on the other hand, perfect, so far. I can see Jones doing well there too, not least because he is so sticky with the ball.

[Doc_Piptorious]

There's a few things which stand out to me as tactical differences between Klopp and Slot, and which specifically impact the required DM skillset.

1. We are looking to control the game from front to back a lot more, which means you need a solid press resistant presence in that area who can do more with the ball under pressure.

2. Per 1. above, we are more likely to be pressed ourselves when in possession in deep areas due to the nature of our play, so a press resistant presence at DM is crucial in order to keep the ball under pressure and find players in space.

3. Per 1. and 2. above, we are less likely to be counter attacked now than under Klopp, so the requirement for a last ditch destroyer to break up play is not the priority.

When you add that up, you can see why Endo was crucial under Klopp, but just isn't right for Slot.

Mac Allister and Gravenberch on the other hand, perfect, so far. I can see Jones doing well there too, not least because he is so sticky with the ball.

No disagreement from me on that. Under Klopp we needed that Fabinho or Masch type to fully implement Klopp's preferred midfield (and ultimately team) set up.

Under Slot you get the feeling a Rodri type would be the ideal deep midfielder as Slot's set up is far far closer to that of Guardiola.

Someone like Tchouameni (yeah I always find a way to slip him in somewhere ) would be ideal imo as he brings a lot of what Rodri brings and as he only turned 24 this year he could well grow into being the same level of player that the 4 or 5 year older Rodri is now.


Also think that is why we targetted Zubimendi as statistically he profiles like a budget version of Tchouameni (also think there are aspects of Zubimendi's play that mark him out as a bit of a pound shop Alonso). His best areas statistically are the same ones that Tchouameni absolutely excels at and to a far higher level in the same league.

Throw in the fact that Tchouameni is quicker, bigger and a lot more physical and the fact that Tchouameni is aerially very good and can play as a ball playing CB (just like Rodri with all of those qualities (save for pace as Tchouameni is a lot quicker than Rodri) and a player ticking similar boxes would suit how Slot sets up his midfield.

[dom9]

This article made me chuckle a bit this morning:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5294650/2024/09/06/erik-ten-hag-tactics-debunked-manchester-united/

A couple of observations:

1. Is Slot being a bit too open about his tactical approach? It's fascinating, but is it a good idea to tell everyone about it on TV?

2. I thought this on Sunday, but United fans must be seething at how quickly our guy has slotted in (see what I did there, boom) and shown huge tactical nouse and adaptability, whereas their guy seems to be making the same mistakes again and again and again.

After Arne Slot debunked Erik ten Hag’s tactical setup on live TV, how worried should United fans be?

By Carl Anka

Arne Slot may have inadvertently added insult to injury following Liverpool’s 3-0 victory over Manchester United on Sunday. Talking to Sky Sports in the aftermath of the game, the Liverpool manager was asked about his tactical approach to Erik ten Hag’s pressing system. His answer was articulate and illuminating.

It also set off alarm bells among sections of the United fanbase.

After two defeats in his opening three games, has Ten Hag been “figured out” by opposition managers?

Here’s what Slot said…

https://x.com/SkySportsPL/status/1830485809583235237

“Last season, they were man-marking in the midfield and they had a press with the No 7 and No 11, so with the striker and one of the wingers jumped with him,” said Slot when asked what he identified about United. “This season, they are more with a No 9 and No 10 press, so they’re more in a 4-4-2. So that’s different, of course.”

“I see them, in my opinion, working harder if the ball is played through them. So they run more. That’s at least what I saw in the first games.”

Roy Keane then asked the Liverpool manager if he thought his team’s high press allowed them to be “straight at” United if they won the ball.

“Their full-backs, nine out of 10 times, are really high and then Casemiro comes in between. So if you pick the ball and keep Luis Diaz and Mo Salah high, then you are constantly in a one-to-one situation.”

“And then you need midfielders that can run. We had three of them today that kept on running and if they arrive in the duel, they are aggressive enough to win it. That was one of the main reasons why we could win today.”


Explain that to me like I’m five years old…

In Ten Hag’s first two seasons in charge, United pressed with a front three, looking to disrupt opponents from building out from the back.



However, opponents found it easy to play around United’s often inconsistent press.

Last season, several managers including Ange Postecoglou and Roberto De Zerbi realised they could stretch United’s front press to breaking point if they got their centre-backs to stand further apart during build-up. (You could see the then-Brighton manager explain this to Lewis Dunk when the two sides met at Old Trafford last season.)

Following the 4-0 defeat away to Crystal Palace in May, Ten Hag changed his approach, playing with two false nines and asking his wingers to pinch in. By adding an extra player to the front press, United can now go player-for-player to disrupt an opponent’s build-up patterns.

Opposition teams now find it more challenging to play the ball out to the full-backs. As a result, they attempt more passes into central midfield, where United players are supposed to be waiting to snap into tackles and regain possession.



But United came undone against Liverpool because…

1) When Liverpool were in possession, several players were comfortable passing and receiving the ball under pressure, rendering Ten Hag’s scheme toothless.

2) When Liverpool were out of possession, they pressed high up the field to take advantage of United’s 3-1-6 shape in the build-up.

For example, look at how few United players are behind the ball and ready to defend after Casemiro loses possession in the build up to the first goal.



When Ryan Gravenberch plays the pass to Salah on the outside, United’s three remaining defenders have all been sucked over towards the near post, leaving plenty of space for Diaz and Dominic Szoboszlai to attack the opposite side.



Salah duly crosses to the back post, and Diaz heads it in.

For Liverpool’s third, note how four of Slot’s players are ready to flood into United’s defensive third after Alexis Mac Allister wins the ball off Kobbie Mainoo.



They quickly gain a four-v-two advantage over United. It leads to Salah, the Liverpool attacker closest to the bottom of the screen, putting away their third.

Liverpool beat United because they were aggressive in their press and forced their opponents to turn the ball over regularly. From there, they attacked the spaces behind United’s fullbacks.

Why has this set off alarm bells?

Slot’s explanation focused on a persistent issue for United since Ten Hag’s arrival: rest defence.

Play: Video

To describe the concept in basic terms, rest defence refers to a team’s positioning, orientation, and responsibilities when they are attacking and how prepared they are to defend if the ball is lost.

For much of his managerial career at Ajax, Ten Hag would send both full-backs to join the wingers and centre-forward in attack. The idea was to overload the last line of an opposition’s defence and sustain pressure in the final third. If Eredivisie teams managed to repel an attack and break on Ajax, responsibility would fall on a defensive midfielder to mop things up with a tackle around the halfway line or for one of his two remaining centre-backs to marshal a large area of space in their half.

It’s an approach that saw success in Amsterdam because…
1) Ten Hag communicated his tactical ideas very well during his time at Ajax, with players such as Dusan Tadic praising his attention to detail and knowledge of various pressing schemes.

2) Ajax’s financial advantage over other Eredivisie sides allowed Ten Hag to acquire a higher proportion of the league’s best players, meaning his attackers were more likely to dominate opposition defenders, and his defenders were more than capable of bullying opposition attackers if they ever broke through.


Since arriving at United, the Dutchman has attempted to replicate a similar approach and enjoyed some success using it — especially when Casemiro found form during the 2022-23 season. However, be it at Ajax or United, Ten Hag’s approach has depended on his team keeping the ball in the final third for sustained periods and his defenders dominating most of their duels and mopping things up quickly if the ball is lost.

United’s rest defence looked shaky in the early sections of 2022-23 until Casemiro settled into the team and plugged many gaps in central midfield with his counter-pressing and aggressive tackling. The team suffered last season, with issues “in the front and the back” (Ten Hag’s words) leading to a massive gap in midfield. That seems to have hastened Casemiro’s decline, something that was evident against Liverpool.

United’s rest defence has been an issue throughout Ten Hag’s time at the club, because it often falls upon aggressive tacklers Casemiro or Lisandro Martinez to win crucial duels — repeatedly — to halt any momentum the opposition team builds. If those key players aren’t up to the task on any given day, the team will suffer as they have to defend at a numerical disadvantage.

Or, to put it simply: Slot’s answer was concerning because it didn’t focus on a single United player having an off-day but explained the structural issue that is likely to remain even if Ten Hag fielded different players in his starting lineups.

In a press conference before the Community Shield, The Athletic asked the United manager how he would improve the side’s rest defence for the upcoming season.

“Rest defence can be an issue in one particular game, but in principle, I have to say our rest defence wasn’t that bad, but our reactions after we lose the ball can be better. Our decision-making after we lose the ball can be better,” said Ten Hag.

“We worked on this issue in pre-season but it’s only in the last two days when we’ve had the whole squad. I addressed it but it will take time to fit this in. We worked this in with 50 per cent of the group and now key players are returning, we have to work them too.”

Understandably, Ten Hag believes United’s rest defence problems will resolve over time as players improve match fitness and get more familiar with his tactical requirements.

And, interestingly, Ten Hag sees the situation as one that can be resolved by improving United’s reaction after losing the ball rather than changing his players’ positioning during different phases of possession.

So, is Slot’s analysis a cheat code for beating United?

Slot’s approach — like any tactical method — comes with risks and rewards. During the same interview, the Liverpool manager was asked whether keeping both wingers so high up the field was a gamble.

“It’s only a gamble if they play through or over and (our wingers) stay where they are,” answered Slot. “But if they then sprint back, it’s not a gamble.

“I think today we saw a lot of moments where our forwards — the whole team but especially our forwards — tracked back so aggressively.”

There were multiple moments on Sunday when Liverpool’s out-of-possession shape mirrored United’s 4-2-4/4-4-2 set-up. Yet Slot’s side prospered, and Ten Hag’s team wilted due to a difference in physical capacity and technical execution. Mac Allister, Szoboszlai, and Gravenberch overran Bruno Fernandes, Casemiro, and Mainoo. At the same time, Diaz and Salah were more decisive in their actions in the final third.

Ten Hag’s approach to games depends on his collection of players being the biggest, fastest and strongest on the pitch. Against Liverpool, they were second best.

Not every Premier League team will be able to win the ball back as effectively and often as Liverpool did on Sunday. Nor will they be able to break at the speed or quality of Slot’s side.

[Buzzo]

I’ve not read the article yet (but will). But to answer your point on Slot being too open, I am sure Klopp did the exact same thing when he started, or at least when it was his team doing well, and we had the same discussion.

It was impressive when he said it though. He pretty much skewered all that is wrong with the Utd formation in under 90 seconds will be interesting to see if ETH has any answers when they next play.

[rudedog]

This article made me chuckle a bit this morning:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5294650/2024/09/06/erik-ten-hag-tactics-debunked-manchester-united/

A couple of observations:

1. Is Slot being a bit too open about his tactical approach? It's fascinating, but is it a good idea to tell everyone about it on TV?

2. I thought this on Sunday, but United fans must be seething at how quickly our guy has slotted in (see what I did there, boom) and shown huge tactical nouse and adaptability, whereas their guy seems to be making the same mistakes again and again and again.

Seems that he is talking specifically about the tactics he used to defeat Man Utd. Don’t really have a problem with him sharing this info with the rest of the league

[Scratch]

Slot being open about it will either be of benefit to other clubs who are facing United in the coming weeks, or it will force ETH into a tactical rethink, and involve another squad tinkering that will take a while to implement, especially mid season when there is not much time between games to adopt to a new tactical approach. Either way, it's not good for United.

[kingfunk]

Slot is far from silly, he will have known exactly what he was saying. From what I’ve seen so far, he can change his tactics on the turn of a hat to out fox the opposition, doesn’t worry me in the slightest.

[Scratch]

Doc, with regards to Tchoo-tchoo (I can't spell his proper name, but you know who I mean) stats being far superior to Zubamendi (who I think we are still interested in, and probably still in dialogue with), are the stats skewed by the fact that one plays for a Madrid team who tend to steam roller the rest of the league, and the other is in a RS team that will more often than not be more defensive? Or is there, in your mind, a great difference in terms of ability between the two of them?

[Doc_Piptorious]

This article made me chuckle a bit this morning:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5294650/2024/09/06/erik-ten-hag-tactics-debunked-manchester-united/

A couple of observations:

1. Is Slot being a bit too open about his tactical approach? It's fascinating, but is it a good idea to tell everyone about it on TV?

2. I thought this on Sunday, but United fans must be seething at how quickly our guy has slotted in (see what I did there, boom) and shown huge tactical nouse and adaptability, whereas their guy seems to be making the same mistakes again and again and again.

I don't think he is. He tends to only talk about the really obvious stuff that even folk with a basic understanding could figure out for their team set ups playing EA FC.

Proper footy folk will be able to look at videos, stats and heat maps for his teams and work out stuff in far greater detail anyway so what he says on tv matters little. Imo of course.


It's a bit like how back in the day when the likes of Marvin Hagler would get asked how deal with this or that with regards to another fighter. He would then break down the other fighter's strengths and elaborate on how he would defend against an attacking style or how he would break down a defensive guy.

Hagler would spell it out in advance, his opponent knew what was coming and had time to prepare, and then Hagler would just get into the ring and do what he said he was going to do.


Hell for one of the most explosive fights of all time, Hagler vs Hearns, not only did he explain pre fight how he would take the massive shots Hearns threw, he explained how he would then systematically break Hearns down and stop him in three rounds. Often stating in the weeks before the fight that after the smoke cleared that his hand would be raised after three hard hitting rounds.

[labourRed]

Slot is far from silly, he will have known exactly what he was saying. From what I’ve seen so far, he can change his tactics on the turn of a hat to out fox the opposition, doesn’t worry me in the slightest.

I saw the same response in Dom's post in real time and it did raise an eyebrow as i prefer managers to straight bat questions like that.

But i've done a LOT of reading into Slot and you are absolutely right he's know for tweaking tactics from game to game and putting players into half spaces if he needs to during the game. Very tactically flexible.

I read one interview from an ex player who said he tells you before the game what will happen and during you can see those ideas play out. That amount of confidence will earn a lot of trust with the players.

They talked about this very thing on the overlap, but there's so much to unpick from that so i'll leave it there.

It looks like we've landed on our feet with this fella.

[Paul12]

It is only three games and they were against some very average teams.

[BG1973]

Seems that he is talking specifically about the tactics he used to defeat Man Utd. Don’t really have a problem with him sharing this info with the rest of the league

He's just doing his bit to get United relegated.

But yeah keep quiet on anything tactical seems the obvious approach.