Jamie Carragher

[JHP]

despite arns obvious heartbreak and inability to move on from rafa, i personally do think carra has effectively screwed us over by putting himself before the club. I think him and gerrarrd basically clubbed together and used purslow as their puppet. and they've caused what we've seen on the pitch over the last 18 months. not trying to be controversial, just what I think.

i think him and stevie sulking their way through last season was the main difference between us finishing in the top 4 and 7th and rafa staying or going. They/purslow then dictated this summer's transfer disaster, managerial change even ****ing tactics under roy (stevie in CM) and of course the tasty contract for JC.

I simply think there's no smoke without fire and in this case - the contract plus houllier and owen's quotes tell me that one or both of them were pushing for the changes we've seen.

great servants to the club in the past and some brilliant footballers but i think they've had way too much power and hope NESV deal with them properly.

simply because of what I believe has happened and that it could even have cost us no 19 under rafa - either last season or this, i dont want to see either of them at the club once they finish playing. thanks but close the door on your way out.

so i could be completely wide of the mark but nothing i've been able to find out has made me able to think of a scenario i believe more.

Do you honestly believe they are to blame and that it isn't as a result of the shambles created by the previous owners/ lack of clear leadership?

[Neil Young]

despite arns obvious heartbreak and inability to move on from rafa, i personally do think carra has effectively screwed us over by putting himself before the club. I think him and gerrarrd basically clubbed together and used purslow as their puppet. and they've caused what we've seen on the pitch over the last 18 months. not trying to be controversial, just what I think.

i think him and stevie sulking their way through last season was the main difference between us finishing in the top 4 and 7th and rafa staying or going. They/purslow then dictated this summer's transfer disaster, managerial change even ****ing tactics under roy (stevie in CM) and of course the tasty contract for JC.

I simply think there's no smoke without fire and in this case - the contract plus houllier and owen's quotes tell me that one or both of them were pushing for the changes we've seen.

great servants to the club in the past and some brilliant footballers but i think they've had way too much power and hope NESV deal with them properly.

simply because of what I believe has happened and that it could even have cost us no 19 under rafa - either last season or this, i dont want to see either of them at the club once they finish playing. thanks but close the door on your way out.

so i could be completely wide of the mark but nothing i've been able to find out has made me able to think of a scenario i believe more.

How about a smoke machine?

Seriously, I think there's a germ of truth in what you're saying but I do think you're taking a bit far. I'm sure Purslow wasn't a puppet for instance - it's far more likely to have been much more the other way round, even if that does also mean that Gerrard and Carragher got sweeteners to keep them onside.

To return to the smoke machine joke, in this case, the smoke machine is the internet - there is far too much gossip and speculation and wishful thinking and occasionally blind, unthinking reaction and far too little fact to go on.

[barnes10]

How about a smoke machine?

Seriously, I think there's a germ of truth in what you're saying but I do think you're taking a bit far. I'm sure Purslow wasn't a puppet for instance - it's far more likely to have been much more the other way round, even if that does also mean that Gerrard and Carragher got sweeteners to keep them onside.

To return to the smoke machine joke, in this case, the smoke machine is the internet - there is far too much gossip and speculation and wishful thinking and occasionally blind, unthinking reaction and far too little fact to go on.

Dont disagree with that - why i was saying its my belief/view on whats gone on. so sure i've extrapolated but its what makes sense to me.

the puppet thing i see as them whispering in his ear and for his own ego trip, he goes and acts like the ****er from shrek that montse says... so not literally a puppet - or cartoon character - but the executioner - hands that put into action the seeds that they've sown.

again just my view - extrapolated to paint a complete picture.

re the point above about 18 months on the pitch. sure the ownership had its impact - no funds returned from keane for instance certainly put the squad under extra pressure. the thing is tho, that in those circumstances, shouldnt the first team pull together more and not less? shouldnt the idolised local lads and leaders on and off the pitch rally the troops? to encourange and help get the best out of the team? to overcome differences and support a manager who, whilst he may be a bit cold - if you believe what you hear - is clearly the best option available to us at the time. anyway, as above this is just my view but they've put personal interests before the club and that leaves me struggling to respect them. admire their footballing achievements yes. but i hate what i think they've done to my club

[GorbyPeacePrize]

You can't change multiple variables in a system and then claim as fact that a particular variable is responsible for results.

In the League - the most important competition - we had a negative goal difference with Carragher, and now, in the League - the most important competition - we have got a negative goal difference.

[Craig_H]

Ah, so you're picking games that suit your argument.

[GorbyPeacePrize]

despite arns obvious heartbreak and inability to move on from rafa, i personally do think carra has effectively screwed us over by putting himself before the club. I think him and gerrarrd basically clubbed together and used purslow as their puppet. and they've caused what we've seen on the pitch over the last 18 months. not trying to be controversial, just what I think.

i think him and stevie sulking their way through last season was the main difference between us finishing in the top 4 and 7th and rafa staying or going. They/purslow then dictated this summer's transfer disaster, managerial change even ****ing tactics under roy (stevie in CM) and of course the tasty contract for JC.

I simply think there's no smoke without fire and in this case - the contract plus houllier and owen's quotes tell me that one or both of them were pushing for the changes we've seen.

great servants to the club in the past and some brilliant footballers but i think they've had way too much power and hope NESV deal with them properly.

simply because of what I believe has happened and that it could even have cost us no 19 under rafa - either last season or this, i dont want to see either of them at the club once they finish playing. thanks but close the door on your way out.

so i could be completely wide of the mark but nothing i've been able to find out has made me able to think of a scenario i believe more.

Only one quibble: Carragher has never ever been 'a brilliant footballer'.

[GorbyPeacePrize]

Ah, so you're picking games that suit your argument.

I'm not padding it out with Euro ****e.

One example, vs Napoli at home. We concede a goal due to Hoofy and Poulson **** ups - Hoofy misses a challenge and ends up out of position, and Poluson directs the header to the Napoli player who steams in and scores, leaving us a goal down and looking generally ****e. Long story short, Gerrard comes on and scores a hatrick - to which Hoofy made no material contribution, and we win 3 - 1. Yet this game gives Hoofy a nice +2 in the GD column. **** off!

[Neil Young]

Dont disagree with that - why i was saying its my belief/view on whats gone on. so sure i've extrapolated but its what makes sense to me.

the puppet thing i see as them whispering in his ear and for his own ego trip, he goes and acts like the ****er from shrek that montse says... so not literally a puppet - or cartoon character - but the executioner - hands that put into action the seeds that they've sown.

again just my view - extrapolated to paint a complete picture.

re the point above about 18 months on the pitch. sure the ownership had its impact - no funds returned from keane for instance certainly put the squad under extra pressure. the thing is tho, that in those circumstances, shouldnt the first team pull together more and not less? shouldnt the idolised local lads and leaders on and off the pitch rally the troops? to encourange and help get the best out of the team? to overcome differences and support a manager who, whilst he may be a bit cold - if you believe what you hear - is clearly the best option available to us at the time. anyway, as above this is just my view but they've put personal interests before the club and that leaves me struggling to respect them. admire their footballing achievements yes. but i hate what i think they've done to my club

Sure, I wasn't suggesting you were claiming anything other than your opinion. And like I say, I think there's genuine cause to question Carragher's behaviour, and maybe Gerrard's too.

It's just my opinion your view goes too far and you're close to making accusations when, as you admit, it's just all based on your interpretation of stuff you've heard and read.

The baddies were Hicks and Gillett. Maybe Gerrard and Carragher and even Rafa aren't quite the goodies we'd have liked them to be. But I think these things go on all the time in all sorts of organisations, not just football clubs.

Like fish, the rot begins at the head.

[Craig_H]

I'm not padding it out with Euro ****e.

No, you're picking the games that suit your agenda.

Whereas, i'm just using all games, without manipulating anything.

[Arn]

All we know is that this season would have been Carragher's last one with us if Rafa had stayed and his only chance to stay was to get rid of Rafa.

Carragher is a Liverpool legend but he proved once and for all that he puts himself before the club if he had to make a choice.

The Carragher Liverpool heart thing is just bull****, he proved that when he signed his new deal the day before the takeover.

If he stays at the club after he finish playing then it is a disgrace simply because he don't deserve it. He can go on and play with his money instead. He loves them more than Liverpool FC.

[Craig_H]

We dont actually know anything about Carra 'getting rid' of rafa - more baseless Arn-type speculative bollocks.

As for the contract - cos you, in the same position, would've turned it down, yeah?

[GorbyPeacePrize]

All we know is that this season would have been Carragher's last one with us if Rafa had stayed and his only chance to stay was to get rid of Rafa.

Carragher is a Liverpool legend but he proved once and for all that he puts himself before the club if he had to make a choice.

The Carragher Liverpool heart thing is just bull****, he proved that when he signed his new deal the day before the takeover.

If he stays at the club after he finish playing then it is a disgrace simply because he don't deserve it. He can go on and play with his money instead. He loves them more than Liverpool FC.

Although he's not a legend, just an average utility man that thrived for a short spell within a defensive set-up, next to some very good players that made him look a lot better than he actually was.

[GorbyPeacePrize]

No, you're picking the games that suit your agenda.

Whereas, i'm just using all games, without manipulating anything.

The example I gave demonstrated that your 'myth busting' is a sack of ****e, and relied on another player to score a hatrick and undeservedly boost Hoofy's 'GD score'.

[Arn]

We dont actually know anything about Carra 'getting rid' of rafa - more baseless Arn-type speculative bollocks.

As for the contract - cos you, in the same position, would've turned it down, yeah?

You still don't get it do you

He wasn't offered a new deal. Rafa didn't offer him a new deal. Rafa had the power to decide if Carra would stay or not. Purslow didn't had that power. Only after Rafa had gone then Purslow got the power to offer Carra a new deal.

If Rafa had stayed then it wouldn't been a contract offer to turn down.

The ONLY chance Carra had was to get rid of Rafa or else he would have been finished. That is one thing you never will understand or agree with.

You even defends the way he fixed his new contract and that is laughable to say the least. Even when he acts like a total egoistic idiot you defend him. When he piss all over the club you defend him. Totally laughable.

Carra is player that shouldn't play for us because the club and the manager didn't want him. Now he plays for us only because Purslow wanted him to do it.

[Craig_H]

You still don't get it do you

He wasn't offered a new deal. Rafa didn't offer him a new deal. Rafa had the power to decide if Carra would stay or not. Purslow didn't had that power. Only after Rafa had gone then Purslow got the power to offer Carra a new deal.

If Rafa had stayed then it wouldn't been a contract offer to turn down.

The ONLY chance Carra had was to get rid of Rafa or else he would have been finished. That is one thing you never will understand or agree with.

You even defends the way he fixed his new contract and that is laughable to say the least. Even when he acts like a total egoistic idiot you defend him. When he piss all over the club you defend him. Totally laughable.

Carra is player that shouldn't play for us because the club and the manager didn't want him. Now he plays for us only because Purslow wanted him to do it.

So you would've turned it down then? Cos you ignored that question.