Jamie Carragher

[The Birdman]

What I will add is this argument for playing Carra because he organises the defence is complete and utter bollocks.
Our defence was pretty well organised before he became a regular and will be after he stops being a first choice pick. That's the job of Steve Clarke positionally and collectively the 4 that play at the back will work as a unit.
Skrtel and Coates are both internationals so whichever one comes in is more than capable of pointing fingers in someones direction ans shouting.

Pick or don't pick Carra based purely on ability and form alone, this organisation bull**** is used to ignore the real problems which is age, pace (or lack of it), mobility and a infuriating fettish with launching the ball long, high and aimlessly.

And btw those who were questioning Kenny earlier as to whether he has the balls to drop him? too ****ing right he does, he is exactly the right person to make this decision.

If Kenny continues to pick Carra then I'm 100% behind the decision, personally I would have been looking at alternative centre back pairings last season and certainly now that we have signed Coates

[Darkon]

I know Carragher is quickly becoming our latest scapegoat here, but to me it does speak volumes that not one manager in about 15 years have thought he was to bad for the first team. He did make a mistake, everybody does.

and @ the birdman isn't oranizational skill, communication, positioning, teamwork also a part of the abilities to be judged or is it only his pace? Age is not really an ability as one of the three you point out, and older defenders than him have done very well in the PL. I agree though that his passing is not the best in the world to say the least, but it never has and Evans, Houllier, Rafa, the unspeakable one and Kenny seem to find him good enough judging by ability and form...

[danperkins]

There is also the injury issues with Kelly and for me currently playing him at RB suits the side best.

But fully fit I'd expect Kelly - Coates - Agger - Enrique to be the back 4 we'd be looking to get playing together once all fit/settled in

[The Birdman]

I know Carragher is quickly becoming our latest scapegoat here, but to me it does speak volumes that not one manager in about 15 years have thought he was to bad for the first team. He did make a mistake, everybody does.

and @ the birdman isn't oranizational skill, communication, positioning, teamwork also a part of the abilities to be judged or is it only his pace? Age is not really an ability as one of the three you point out, and older defenders than him have done very well in the PL. I agree though that his passing is not the best in the world to say the least, but it never has and Evans, Houllier, Rafa, the unspeakable one and Kenny seem to find him good enough judging by ability and form...

He only became a regular at centre back under Rafa through didn't he? you can't organise or marshall a defence from full back and granted it is something he does well.
I'm not anti Carra at all, I think he has been a very good player for us over 15/16 years and was a sensational centre back and arguable the best defender in the PL for maybe 2-3 of those years around the 04/05 seasons.

Man U have won virtually everything for years and you don't see hear anything said about or any deal made out of the organisational qualities of Ferdinand/Vidic/Evans/Smalling/Jones/O'Shea/Brown etc.... all you rightly hear about is their ability to do the job selected for.
They must have the most unsettled centre back pairings in the league yet win the PL and compete for the CL every year.
Organisational skills come to the fore when you are struggling to do your own job, for example a centre back who isn't as quick or as mobile as he used to be will make a massive effort to get the other defenders around him to compensate for his shortfalls.

While the penalty for Stoke at the weekend was very harsh it showed up that Carra got done on the turn so he put his body across and subsequently grabbed at Walters who belatedly went down.

As the old phrase used to go....... I've seen milk turn quicker



Edit - Out of interest what defenders older than Carra have done well in the PL?, I can't think of any, certainly not recently in top 4/6 sides

[PTP]

not jumping in here to defend carragher or have a go at coates or anything like that...

but seeing a lot of people convinced that Coates is going to come in and win the league

Now i really hope coates does well for us....but a question for the anti carra/pro coates brigade....

What happens if we drop coates for spurs away - he struggles to adapt under a bit of pressure on his debut - makes a mistake and costs us the game, we then decide to stick with him but in our next game is a bit unlucky and concedes a penalty and we lose that too....

Do we then slate coates as being out of his depth, slate kenny for throwing him in at the deep end and start calling for more experience at the back in the big games??

[Darkon]

He only became a regular at centre back under Rafa through didn't he? you can't organise or marshall a defence from full back and granted it is something he does well.
I'm not anti Carra at all, I think he has been a very good player for us over 15/16 years and was a sensational centre back and arguable the best defender in the PL for maybe 2-3 of those years around the 04/05 seasons.

Man U have won virtually everything for years and you don't see hear anything said about or any deal made out of the organisational qualities of Ferdinand/Vidic/Evans/Smalling/Jones/O'Shea/Brown etc.... all you rightly hear about is their ability to do the job selected for.
They must have the most unsettled centre back pairings in the league yet win the PL and compete for the CL every year.
Organisational skills come to the fore when you are struggling to do your own job, for example a centre back who isn't as quick or as mobile as he used to be will make a massive effort to get the other defenders around him to compensate for his shortfalls.

While the penalty for Stoke at the weekend was very harsh it showed up that Carra got done on the turn so he put his body across and subsequently grabbed at Walters who belatedly went down.

As the old phrase used to go....... I've seen milk turn quicker



Edit - Out of interest what defenders older than Carra have done well in the PL?, I can't think of any, certainly not recently in top 4/6 sides

Carragher became a regular a lot earlier:

Season League FA LC Europe Other Total
1996-1997 2 0 1 0 0 3
1997-1998 20 0 2 1 0 23
1998-1999 34 2 2 6 0 44
1999-2000 36 2 2 0 0 40
2000-2001 34 6 6 12 0 58
2001-2002 33 2 1 16 1 53
2002-2003 35 3 5 11 0 54
2003-2004 22 3 0 4 0 29
2004-2005 38 0 3 15 0 56
2005-2006 36 6 0 13 2 57
2006-2007 35 1 1 13 1 51
2007-2008 35 4 3 13 0 55
2008-2009 38 3 1 12 0 54
2009-2010 37 2 1 13 0 53
2010-2011 28 0 0 10 0 38
2011-2012 4 0 0 0 0 4

On the note of man utd, they have a very good organizer in Ferdinand IMO, and you hear very little of the organizational quality of any defender in the media despite the importance to a team. You only hear that they have a well organized defense.

On the older defenders doing well, Hyypia springs to mind, Adams, Keown, Desailly and there are most likely others. Age is just a poor measurement as an ability, when in reality it comes down to much more than that.

[The Birdman]

I said a regular at centre back under Rafa, I never said Carra wasn't a regular earlier having said that I honestly had no idea that he has been a really consistant mainstay of our defence for the past 13 seasons, 14 if we include this one.
The only season with less than 30 games would be the leg break at Blackburn year. That's an amazing record for someone to stay fit that long year in year out.

Desailly last played in the PL in 2004, Keown 2004, Adams 2002 and Hyypia was last a regular starter in 06/07 (I think)
Sami was 32/33 then so similar in age to Carra, we had more defensive minded full backs, played mostly on the counter attack and most Liverpool fans would agree he was a class act reading the play and anticipating danger.
Even in the halcion season of 2005 Carra is mostly remembered for desperate last ditch blocks, throwing his body in the way. He isn't remembered for serinely stepping infront of strikers cutting off through balls or dropping off anticipating in the way that Sami used to.

My personal opinion is that you do not finish in the top 4 playing a 34 year old centre back every single week in a team with attacking full backs.
That doesn't mean I don't like Carra, just means that the PL is proven to be about pace, power, mobility and when Johnson comes back and starts raiding down the right Carra will be even more exposed and we'll see more desperate lunges, grabbing and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he didn't pick up 1 or 2 red cards.

[Fierce]

There is also the injury issues with Kelly and for me currently playing him at RB suits the side best.

But fully fit I'd expect Kelly - Coates - Agger - Enrique to be the back 4 we'd be looking to get playing together once all fit/settled in

Kelly over Glen Johnson?! Not in a million years for me. In the future maybe, but a 20 year old kid is not going to be preferred to a £17m England first XI right back

[Arn]

not jumping in here to defend carragher or have a go at coates or anything like that...

but seeing a lot of people convinced that Coates is going to come in and win the league

Now i really hope coates does well for us....but a question for the anti carra/pro coates brigade....

What happens if we drop coates for spurs away - he struggles to adapt under a bit of pressure on his debut - makes a mistake and costs us the game, we then decide to stick with him but in our next game is a bit unlucky and concedes a penalty and we lose that too....

Do we then slate coates as being out of his depth, slate kenny for throwing him in at the deep end and start calling for more experience at the back in the big games??

We give him more playing time the same way Rafa gave Lucas playing time for example even if he made the team worse the first few months.

We will most probably let in more goals the first few months with Coates instead of Carragher but as I already said, we will let in fewer goals after that. A lot of fans will probably moan at Coates in the same way they moaned against Lucas but as Lucas showed it could make you a stronger player if you have the right mentality. Then you train even harder to prove people wrong.

The important point is that you must show faith in a young player even if he make mistakes the first few months. You must continue to play him. We will moan about dropped points but we will praise him a lot more for years to come if he takes the criticism the right way.

[Mostar]

Coates is one for the future but according to Clarke he's ready now so his gradual introduction process to the first team needs to start sooner rather than later(as oppose to Wilson for example that is not ready for serious contribution to the first team and he should be sent on a loan) and I am sure Kenny will do what is best for the young lad.

I don't expect him to play game in and game out but any experience he can get will help him understand the ins and outs of PL better, which is clearly competely different that legue and level he played at before.

I think it is obvious that he's not a first choice CB yet and imo we cannot count on him much this year but injuries and suspensions will assist him in getting some very valuable playing time at the highest level and that is all we can expect from him this season.

[gentingfrmhell]

Kelly over Glen Johnson?! Not in a million years for me. In the future maybe, but a 20 year old kid is not going to be preferred to a £17m England first XI right back

I would!! I think with kelly on the right side our full backs are sorted out! Hes a talent, age doesnt matter!

[Norbs]

Said it in Jan, but we really should've been signing Coates AND Cahill had we wanted to mount a serious challenge. Now Carra's totally under pressure and there's only one way this is heading

[BringbackBiscan]

Carragher always starts the season slowly and gets better as it wears on. Any Liverpool fan for longer then 12 months should know this by now.

Neither Coates nor Skrtel are good enough to replace right now, and when one of them is the better option for the team, then the King will pick them.

What else is there to it? Some agenda driven bollocks spoken about Carra across the web since Rafa left, that's what.

[Kronenburg1892]

Carragher always starts the season slowly and gets better as it wears on. Any Liverpool fan for longer then 12 months should know this by now.

Neither Coates nor Skrtel are good enough to replace right now, and when one of them is the better option for the team, then the King will pick them.

What else is there to it? Some agenda driven bollocks spoken about Carra across the web since Rafa left, that's what.

So where would you put Biscan in this midfield?

[BringbackBiscan]

So where would you put Biscan in this midfield?

As a centre back beside Carra. Diao back to play beside Lucas too. That's a spine that'd beat Stoke for sure.