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    At what point or under what circumstances do you say enough is enough with players regarding injury, or under what circumstances are you prepared to keep a player with a dodgy injury record?

    I can see that if they really are a special player and when they play they lift you to another level you could argue that it's worth having them even if they only play half the games in the season, but does that apply to any of our guys?

    Looking at the PL/CL stats for this season for our midfield starts(sub) and % of games started (out of a possible 13 games):
    Henderson 11(1) 85%
    Keita 7(2) 54%
    Fabinho 7(2) 54%
    Milner 7(1) 54%
    Jones 4(3) 30%
    Elliott 3(1) 23%
    Thiago 2(3) 15%
    Ox 1(7) 8%

    Henderson has played in most games, Fabinho and Naby played in about 70% and started just over half Milner just a bit less. Thiago has been involved in just over a third of games and started in about 15% of them.
    Coming into the season you would probably expect out first choice midfield to be 3 from Henderson, Fabinho, Keita and Thiago - assuming we start with 3 midfielders which is generally the case those 4 have taken 27 out of a possible 39 starting spots meaning our first choice four have only started 70% of games.

    Last season for comparison (out of 48) some of these guys will have played games at CB:
    Wijnaldum 42(5) 88%
    Fabinho 35(3) 73%
    Henderson 24(3) 50%
    Thiago 22(6) 46%
    Jones 18(11) 38%
    Milner 15(17) 31%
    Keita 9(7) 19%
    Shaqiri 6(13) 13%
    Ox 2(14) 4%

    Wijnaldum played more or less every game, Fabinho started about 75%, Henderson and Thiago about 50%, Keita about 20% Despite at times there being 4 or 5 midfielders on the pitch (playing in either midfield or at CB).

    Obviously it's early in this season so the stats aren't based on alot of games but looking back at last year as well (you could probably do the same for previous years but I expect the picture would be very similar). With Wijnaldum gone you aren't surprised that a number of players are only starting around half of the games, despite you considering them first choice. You look at where the extra starts are going this season and it seems Milner is the main beneficiary, he has already started half as many games in the first 13 this season as he did in the whole of last season, given that he is almost 36 that doesn't seem like it should be part of the plan. Ok maybe you can argue that Elliott would have been a regular started had he not got injured and that was the plan. But looking at the numbers it never looked as though we were going to be able to pick a regular settled midfield even picking 3 from a group of 4 which you regard as your regulars. I find it baffling that with all the analytics that we are supposedly into no-one has really picked up on this when it seems obvious to most of us, without digging into it.
    The only gracious way to accept an insult is to ignore it; if you can't ignore it, top it; if you can't top it, laugh at it; if you can't laugh at it, it's probably deserved.

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      Originally posted by Exiled_red View Post
      At what point or under what circumstances do you say enough is enough with players regarding injury, or under what circumstances are you prepared to keep a player with a dodgy injury record?

      I can see that if they really are a special player and when they play they lift you to another level you could argue that it's worth having them even if they only play half the games in the season, but does that apply to any of our guys?

      Looking at the PL/CL stats for this season for our midfield starts(sub) and % of games started (out of a possible 13 games):
      Henderson 11(1) 85%
      Keita 7(2) 54%
      Fabinho 7(2) 54%
      Milner 7(1) 54%
      Jones 4(3) 30%
      Elliott 3(1) 23%
      Thiago 2(3) 15%
      Ox 1(7) 8%

      Henderson has played in most games, Fabinho and Naby played in about 70% and started just over half Milner just a bit less. Thiago has been involved in just over a third of games and started in about 15% of them.
      Coming into the season you would probably expect out first choice midfield to be 3 from Henderson, Fabinho, Keita and Thiago - assuming we start with 3 midfielders which is generally the case those 4 have taken 27 out of a possible 39 starting spots meaning our first choice four have only started 70% of games.

      Last season for comparison (out of 48) some of these guys will have played games at CB:
      Wijnaldum 42(5) 88%
      Fabinho 35(3) 73%
      Henderson 24(3) 50%
      Thiago 22(6) 46%
      Jones 18(11) 38%
      Milner 15(17) 31%
      Keita 9(7) 19%
      Shaqiri 6(13) 13%
      Ox 2(14) 4%

      Wijnaldum played more or less every game, Fabinho started about 75%, Henderson and Thiago about 50%, Keita about 20% Despite at times there being 4 or 5 midfielders on the pitch (playing in either midfield or at CB).

      Obviously it's early in this season so the stats aren't based on alot of games but looking back at last year as well (you could probably do the same for previous years but I expect the picture would be very similar). With Wijnaldum gone you aren't surprised that a number of players are only starting around half of the games, despite you considering them first choice. You look at where the extra starts are going this season and it seems Milner is the main beneficiary, he has already started half as many games in the first 13 this season as he did in the whole of last season, given that he is almost 36 that doesn't seem like it should be part of the plan. Ok maybe you can argue that Elliott would have been a regular started had he not got injured and that was the plan. But looking at the numbers it never looked as though we were going to be able to pick a regular settled midfield even picking 3 from a group of 4 which you regard as your regulars. I find it baffling that with all the analytics that we are supposedly into no-one has really picked up on this when it seems obvious to most of us, without digging into it.
      fair play for doing the leg work on that, great post

      You would think that it is absolutely imperative that we go into the market in the Jan window for one, if not two midfielders so we don't leave ourselves sort.

      Comment


        Jordan Henderson

        Gini of last season wouldn’t make us a better team this season, let’s not kid ourselves or start looking back with rose-tinted spectacles.

        We have too many injury prone midfielders and those who aren’t usually injured, have also got injured. An ageing Millie, Hendo can’t pick up all the hard yards when Fab, Keita, Jones and Elliott are all out injured…

        Ox should have been shipped in the summer and a younger replacement brought in…

        Bellingham is crazy money but would be a perfect Klopp signing. Raphina, too. Can’t think of a suitable Fabinho equivalent who isn’t much older than him already…

        Comment


          Originally posted by Tribute View Post
          Gini of last season wouldn’t make us a better team this season, let’s not kid ourselves or start looking back with rose-tinted spectacles.

          We have too many injury prone midfielders and those who aren’t usually injured, have also got injured. An ageing Millie, Hendo can’t pick up all the hard yards when Fab, Keita, Jones and Elliott are all out injured…

          Ox should have been shipped in the summer and a younger replacement brought in…

          Bellingham is crazy money but would be a perfect Klopp signing. Raphina, too. Can’t think of a suitable Fabinho equivalent who isn’t much older than him already…
          That’s the thing - there aren’t many (if any) Fab type players out there that give his destructive capability as well as his ability to use the ball. I think Ndidi at Leicester is close but not at his level and would cost a fortune, I know Jaco likes Tchouameni but he isn’t an out an out DM........ I’m sure Edwards and co have the profile they want and a list.... we need to offload a few of the deadwood before we can add to our midfielders

          Comment


            Originally posted by Irishnev View Post
            That’s the thing - there aren’t many (if any) Fab type players out there that give his destructive capability as well as his ability to use the ball. I think Ndidi at Leicester is close but not at his level and would cost a fortune, I know Jaco likes Tchouameni but he isn’t an out an out DM........ I’m sure Edwards and co have the profile they want and a list.... we need to offload a few of the deadwood before we can add to our midfielders

            And I do not see him as an out and out DM. I always say that when he plays deep it is more as a deep playing playmaker or comntroller and not a pure DM.

            My other comments about him were in regard to how he could be back up for both Henderson and Fabinho in that he is a good box to box player with a hell of a lot of high end physcal qualities but also capable ofbeing a very disciplined deep playmaker. What he probably would be at times is cover for Thiago albeit a much bigger, stronger, faster player to come in for Thiago that whilst he does not have the sublime range of Thiago he would will be head and shoulders above most players his own age and above quite a few players with more experience than him. But him being able to play box to box or as a deep lying player still makes him an option to cover the other two as well.

            The name I mentioned who can play as a DM but to be fair I was suggesting as an all rounder was Kessie.


            Again not saying Kessie is a DM at Fab's level in the role but then again Fab is not a pure DM himself as he has a lot more to his own game than just being an out and out DM.

            The other side of all of the names I suggested is that the oldest of them is only 24 and the youngest is 19 so all have a lot of time to further develop their game and tactical accumen so who knows if one or more of them could be a worldie like Fab by the time they reach his age.


            Right now I would take Kessie as cover for Fab as Kessie is mobile, is physical, he reads the game well, he is faster than Fab (or any of our other current midfelders imo), he puts up good defensive numbers and he offers the ability to also cover any of the other CM slots along with being both a goal threat and a penanlty taker.

            Think what we are lacking a bit in the middle is when it comes to having some quick, dynamic players who can bring an explosive quality either alongside some of our current options or in place of some of our current options when we have injuries or loss of form.

            Another thing I think we lack a little at times in the middle is height, which is why three of the four players I named yesterday are six foot tall or more along with all being quick, mobile, agile coupled with good skill sets and high work rates.


            Another thing all those players have in common is that they can all play in a number of roles without a big drop off in their effectiveness and we know how much Klopp loves a player that is good in a few roles.
            Last edited by Doc_Piptorious; 02-11-21, 09:39 AM.
            I don't hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around.


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              A great captain, a great fella

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              Thanks very much for being ‘This Mornings’ Farmer’

              Comment


                Clicked on the thread thinking it had been bumped for some injury.



                Thankfully it was instead down to Henderson being Henderson.
                I don't hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around.


                Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Shaggy View Post
                  What a guy
                  Modifying post.

                  Comment


                    Back to his best last night imo.

                    In all the right places and bossing the rest about. Drives standards giving Trent and Thiago both barrels on a miss control and himself on a wasted cross.
                    Modifying post.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Buzzo View Post
                      Back to his best last night imo.

                      In all the right places and bossing the rest about. Drives standards giving Trent and Thiago both barrels on a miss control and himself on a wasted cross.


                      Wonder how much of that was the Fabinho effect, and Fab being back removing some pressure from Henderson and allowing Henderson to play his natural game.


                      Think last night showed how important Fabinho is to us. Henderson played very well, but I think he (and others) could play to their own strengths with Fabinho there to take care of what Fab does better than almost anyone else in the game, maybe even better than anyone else.
                      I don't hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around.


                      Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness

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                        Definitely, the blend is crucial. The other players also help make Fab look good by their industry.
                        Modifying post.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Buzzo View Post
                          Definitely, the blend is crucial. The other players also help make Fab look good by their industry.

                          Fair point as well
                          I don't hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around.


                          Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness

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                            Of course

                            [ame]https://twitter.com/LivEchoLFC/status/1459807387771101187[/ame]
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                              **** off England.

                              Hopefully he quits international football after the WC
                              The only gracious way to accept an insult is to ignore it; if you can't ignore it, top it; if you can't top it, laugh at it; if you can't laugh at it, it's probably deserved.

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                                Further assessment of Sadio’s injury
                                Me, I’m either planning a holiday or I’m on one.

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