Stewart Downing - West Hahahaham player

[Mostar]

Your comment:

"He should have been finished or close to be finished product by now and he is not."

Is completely wrong mate. A 22/23 year old is never going to be the finished product, or even close to it.

As i've said, if we want close to the finished product, then we should forget players younger than about 27.



Sorry mate, but none of those were anywhere near the finished article at 22. Nowhere near.

Craig mate I also said in the same post one line above


"In fairness we didn't pay 35m for Carroll to wait 3, 4 years for him to develop."

and one line below

"I would give that time to Teixeira as he is only 19, came from different country and we paid peanuts to get him but not to Carroll"

The thing that matters is that if we have to wait for him to develop for 3,4 years than we should've paid what we paid (once again the price tag is not his fault).

By that time we would have wasted between 47m to 51m in fees and wages and that is poor business decision.

In terms of other players that I mentioned in terms of their development at that age vs Andy here are some of their stats:

Benzema
Age 22 > 8 goals + 3 assists in La Liga or 9 goals + 4 assists in all competitions
Age 23 > 15 goals + 6 assists in La Liga or 26 goals + 9 assists in all competitions

Henry
Age 22 > 17 goals + 9 assists in PL or 26 goals + 11 assists in all competitions
Age 23 > 17 goals + 3 assists in PL or 22 goals + 3 assists in all competitions

Ibrahimovic
Age 22 > 13 goals + 7 assists in Eredivisie or 15 goals + 7 assists in all competitions
Age 23 > 16 goals + 1 assists in Serie A or 16 goals + 4 assists in all competitions

Higuain
Age 22 > 27 goals + 5 assists in La Liga or 29 goals + 6 assists in all competitions
Age 23** > 10 goals + 6 assists in La Liga or 13 goals + 6 assists in all competitions


** Only played 25 games that season

The bottom line is that they all have much better overall game than Andy and they were not nearly as expensive when they were signed by the big clubs.

[Craig_H]

No disputing that Mos mate, i wasnt suggesting Carroll is at the same level as they were at the age of 22/23.

The only thing i was pulling you up on, was the idea that a 22 year old could be the finished article. I have genuinely never seen any footballer who was the finished article at that age.

Carroll's not been what we'd hoped, no denying that. But i dont think he's at the stage where he's a write-off yet, he started poorly but is showing real improvement and the experience will stand him in good stead.

I remember how good Ian Wright was, but he never 'made it' at a very young age either, took him a few years. Obviously i'm not suggesting Carroll is as good or even the same kind of player because he clearly isnt, but Wright is a good example of why it is sometimes worth giving players a bit more time, especially when you can see obvious improvement. £35m was clearly far too much, but we've paid it and it's gone, nothing we can do regarding the money. Let's just show Carroll the support we're known for and with a bit of patience and the fans behind him, he might just prove to be a useful player.

[danperkins]

No but at £35 million pounds you would expect the person (regardless of their age) to be playing at a very very high standard and at the same time hopefully improve. He has been nothing short of mediocre.

Strikers younger or around the same age of Carroll who were playing at a high standard and improved:

Wayne Rooney (was playing better than Carroll at age 17)
Michael Owen (was playing better than Carrol at age 18)
Robbie Fowler (was playing better than Carroll at age 18)
Alan Shearer (was playing better than Carrol at age 21)
Fernando Torres (was world class and playing better than Carroll at age 23)
Emile William Ivanhoe Heskey (was a donkey but was still playing much better than Carroll at around 22)

[baitman]

I remember how good Ian Wright was, but he never 'made it' at a very young age either, took him a few years. Obviously i'm not suggesting Carroll is as good or even the same kind of player because he clearly isnt, but Wright is a good example of why it is sometimes worth giving players a bit more time, especially when you can see obvious improvement. £35m was clearly far too much, but we've paid it and it's gone, nothing we can do regarding the money. Let's just show Carroll the support we're known for and with a bit of patience and the fans behind him, he might just prove to be a useful player.

Craig, i know what you are saying, and yes, we all hope andy carroll comes good, as i doubt kenny would bin him, as he's a stubborn ****er.
the main thing about your theory is that ian wright joined the arse for 2.5m, a club record. he was a prolific scorer for crystal palace even before he went to arsenal.

from wiki;
Having impressed then-manager Steve Coppell,[1] he signed professional terms for Crystal Palace in August 1985, just three months short of his 22nd birthday.[3]
He quickly made his mark in his first season, scoring nine goals to finish as Palace's second-highest scorer. When Mark Bright arrived on the Palace scene the following year the duo soon established a successful striking partnership and it was largely their goals which took the club to top flight via the playoffs in 1989.[4] Wright was particularly instrumental that season, scoring 24 goals in the Second Division and a grand total of 33 in all competitions.[5]
Wright was called up for England B duty in December 1989 but a twice-cracked shin bone reduced his initial impact in the First Division.[4] However, after recovering from the injury he made a dramatic appearance as a 'super-sub', in the 1990 FA Cup Final against Manchester United.[6] He equalised for Palace a few minutes after coming onto the field forcing extra time, then putting them ahead in extra time.[6] The eventual score was 3–3,[1] but Palace lost the replay 1–0.[6]
The next season he gained full international honours,[1] and reached a hundred goals for Crystal Palace.[4] He scored twice as Palace beat Everton to win the Zenith Data Systems Cup at Wembley.[1] Wright became renowned for his deadly striking ability, as shown when he scored a hat-trick in just eighteen minutes in Palace's penultimate game of the 1990–91 season away to Wimbledon.[4]
Wright scored 117 goals in 253 starts and 24 substitute appearances over six seasons for The Eagles in all competitions,[1] making him the club's record post-war goalscorer[4] and third on the all-time list.[7] In 2005, he was voted into their Centenary XI and was named as their "Player of The Century".[8]

[Craig_H]

Mate, my point was that Ian Wright didnt join Palace until just before he turned 22. Usually a player who has a successful top flight career would be a professional already by that age, but Wright was cutting his teeth in the semi professional game until he was signed at nearly 22.

So if Wright had only just become a PRO at that age, it goes to show that some players take longer than others.

[Mostar]

The only thing i was pulling you up on, was the idea that a 22 year old could be the finished article. I have genuinely never seen any footballer who was the finished article at that age.

Carroll's not been what we'd hoped, no denying that. But i dont think he's at the stage where he's a write-off yet, he started poorly but is showing real improvement and the experience will stand him in good stead.

£35m was clearly far too much, but we've paid it and it's gone, nothing we can do regarding the money. Let's just show Carroll the support we're known for and with a bit of patience and the fans behind him, he might just prove to be a useful player.

Valid point there and I wouldn't have a problem patiently waiting to see improvements if I had seen some genuine signs that show that he has potential and skill set to come close to his price tag

We paid as he is finished product and we should've known better as he had only 6 months at top level and that's just not smart given the amount of money in question.

My concerns were that we have seen little from him and what really worries me now is that his work rate improved and he is trying to make an impact and yet it is still not nearly enough and very little to justify our initial investment.

As I said before not his fault that we paid what we paid but unfortunately with that comes the expectation and so far he has not live up to that and I have my doubts he ever will.

[Mostar]

so you think when they wrote that cheque that people at Liverpool thought thats it he is the finished article now. and that is why we paid 35?

What I think is that to justify that price tag the player would have to be either already established top notch footballer or have the world class potential and imo he is neither.

35m is incredibly huge some of money and there is no doubt that we overpaid but the question to me is now do we deploy "control damage" type of a approach and sell him or we ride the wave and see what comes out of it.

[Kenneth]

What I think is that to justify that price tag the player would have to be either already established top notch footballer or have the world class potential and imo he is neither.

35m is incredibly huge some of money and there is no doubt that we overpaid but the question to me is now do we deploy "control damage" type of a approach and sell him or we ride the wave and see what comes out of it.

Indeed

[BootRoom]

And if we'd waited to spend the money until the summer most fans would have gone bonkers. We'd just got rid of one set of owners ****ing us over and FSG must have known how it would have looked if we'd taken the Torres money and not reinvested it.

That would be a ridiculous reason to splurge the cash, and it kind of sounds like FSG forcing Comolli/Kenny into making a purchase to stave off a fan backlash. If there is nobody good enough available with very little time remaining of the transfer window then I'm sure more than enough fans would understand not making a panic buy, especially as it was common knowledge that Torres forced the issue.

[Kenneth]

You would expect it to work differently, yes. Comolli calls Henry and says we want the funds to buy a player.

Henry asks is he a great player/prospect, does he fit into your plans for the team, does he have a great attitude/mentality, is he physically fit?

I assume Camolli didn't say not sure, not really, probably not and no.

[danperkins]

What I think is that to justify that price tag the player would have to be either already established top notch footballer or have the world class potential and imo he is neither.

35m is incredibly huge some of money and there is no doubt that we overpaid but the question to me is now do we deploy "control damage" type of a approach and sell him or we ride the wave and see what comes out of it.

[Craig_H]

What I think is that to justify that price tag the player would have to be either already established top notch footballer or have the world class potential and imo he is neither.

35m is incredibly huge some of money and there is no doubt that we overpaid but the question to me is now do we deploy "control damage" type of a approach and sell him or we ride the wave and see what comes out of it.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that he goes on to have a great season next year and justifies it - and then we'll never look back and nobody will probably mention the fee again.

I'm not of the opinion that he had just 12-18 months to justify the fee.

[saj]

Valid point there and I wouldn't have a problem patiently waiting to see improvements if I had seen some genuine signs that show that he has potential and skill set to come close to his price tag

We paid as he is finished product and we should've known better as he had only 6 months at top level and that's just not smart given the amount of money in question.

My concerns were that we have seen little from him and what really worries me now is that his work rate improved and he is trying to make an impact and yet it is still not nearly enough and very little to justify our initial investment.

As I said before not his fault that we paid what we paid but unfortunately with that comes the expectation and so far he has not live up to that and I have my doubts he ever will.

Spot on. The problem is, everybody but the powers that be at LFC knew that the deal was total madness and didn't make sense.

[red g]

What I think is that to justify that price tag the player would have to be either already established top notch footballer or have the world class potential and imo he is neither.

35m is incredibly huge some of money and there is no doubt that we overpaid but the question to me is now do we deploy "control damage" type of a approach and sell him or we ride the wave and see what comes out of it.

A list of all the players that cost over 25m They are all hugely talented or all had great potential as players.....ANdy sticks out like a sore thumb

Cristiano Ronaldo (Por)
Manchester United (Eng)
Real Madrid (Spa)
£80m

Kaka (Bra)
AC Milan (Ita)
Real Madrid (Spa)
£56m

Fernando Torres (Spa)
Liverpool (Eng)
Chelsea (Eng)
£50m

Zinedine Zidane (Fra)
Juventus (Ita)
Real Madrid (Spa)
£45.62m

Zlatan Ibrahimovic (Swe)
Inter Milan (Ita)
Barcelona (Spa)
£39.76m

Luis Figo (Por)
Barcelona (Spa)
Real Madrid (Spa)
£37m

Hernan Crespo (Arg)
Parma (Ita)
Lazio (Ita)
£35.5m

Sergio Aguero (Arg)
Atletico Madrid (Spa)
Manchester City (Eng)
£35m

Andy Carroll (Eng)
Newcastle United (Eng)
Liverpool (Eng)
£35m

David Villa (Spa)
Valencia (Spa)
Barcelona (Spa)
£34.81m

Gianluigi Buffon (Ita)
Parma (Ita)
Juventus (Ita)
£32.6m

Christian Vieri (Ita)
Lazio (Ita)
Inter Milan (Ita)
£32m

Dimitar Berbatov (Bul)
Tottenham Hotspur (Eng)
Manchester United (Eng)
£30.75m

Andriy Shevchenko (Ukr)
AC Milan (Ita)
Chelsea (Eng)
£30m

Karim Benzema (Fra)
Lyon (Fra)
Real Madrid (Spa)
£29.76m

Rio Ferdinand (Eng)
Leeds United (Eng)
Manchester United (Eng)
£29.1m

Gaizka Mendieta (Spa)
Valencia (Spa)
Lazio (Ita)
£29m

Ronaldo (Bra)
Inter Milan (Ita)
Real Madrid (Spa)
£28.49m

Juan Veron (Arg)
Lazio (Ita)
Manchester United (Eng)
£28.1m

Rui Costa (Por)
Fiorentina EXTINCT (Ita)
AC Milan (Ita)
£28m

Yaya Toure (IvC)
Barcelona (Spa)
Manchester City (Eng)
£27.5m

Xabi Alonso (Spa)
Liverpool (Eng)
Real Madrid (Spa)
£27.2m

Edin Dzeko (Bos)
VfL Wolfsburg (Ger)
Manchester City (Eng)
£27m

Mario Gomez (Ger)
VfB Stuttgart (Ger)
Bayern Munchen (Ger)
£26.42m

Pavel Nedved (Cze)
Lazio (Ita)
Juventus (Ita)
£25.5m

[Craig_H]

Does he stick out that much? There's quite a few on there who moved and flopped.